Miners Strike

[hans kraay fan club]

I've no interest in starting another dull argument with you, thanks.

My point was not that a lot of people don't dislike Blair, for the decisions he made - a great many clearly do. My point was that I think you under-estimate the level of HATRED that a lot of people still hold for Margaret Thatcher.

It wasn't just the hard edged decisions she took, but also, the total lack of empathy that she displayed. It made it easy to caricature her almost as a witch.

On a personal level, when Thatcher was in power, I was an ideallistic, impressionable, politically active student, rather than the married, setlled family man of Blair's tenure. Things are much more black and white in those times, and my personal feelings regarding Thatcher and her legacy are subsequently far stronger than toward Blair and his.

Off course you have no interest you just want me to agree with you which I don't.

Everybody clearly love labour for entering a war on a lie and also forcing the country into a huge recession - what a wonderful life they have given us all

And there was me, trying to be all reasonable.

I've AGREED with you that many people despise Blair for his actions, and I've EXPLAINED very clearly my thoughts on why people hate THatcher, and also some background to why personally my opinions on her are stronger.

In response you've totaly ignored everything I've said, and effectively suggested that I've said quite the opposite.

Incredibly, after almost 50,000 posts, I still can't work out whether you are just a WUM trying to deliberately prolong pointless debate, because your life is devoid of interest, or whether you are simply a bit stupid.

 

[jakarta]

they were made to appear uneconomic and loss making by importing cheaper coal from Poland.

If you can source anything cheaper from one place than another the more expensive one IS uneconomic!

 

[JCL666]

There is no way on Gods earth that Blair is hated as much as Thatcher in this country. Absolutely no way.

I hate them both. Probably Blair more, because I believed in him.

 

[Nibble]

Lol. No idea what you mean, but it did make me laugh.

Was it supposed to?

Haha! Yeah, supposed to. It's how I make an argument when I know pretty much f*** all about what I'm saying.

 

[Simster]

Scoring points with facts which labour supports struggle to understand

Where are your facts? You just sound like a tool with your dull, one sentence responses. You literally add nothing to the debate beyond your mantra that Labour is always wrong.

Yes, we know you think that. Now tell us why. And tell us why you're so convinced that Blair was more hated than Thatcher.

 

[FREDBINNEY]

Shift the blame? What the f*** are you on about? YOU said Blair was more unpopular than Thatch. I disagreed. YOU asked ME to prove I was right without bothering to do so yourself.

And no, I'm not a Labour supporter.

Why then, during the last knockings of Gordon Brown's tenure as Labour leader did you post that labour " need to get rid of brown and get (david ) miliband in now , or We'll lose the next election ?

 

[Nibble]

I take most of your managers have been women then so you despise them as they might be better than you at your job ?

How f***ing dare you!

 

[simmo]

There was no need to call a ballot , the resolution to take industrial action had been passed at NUM conference where the delegates had been instructed which way to vote by rank and file branch members.

In hindsight do you not think it would have been a good idea to call a ballot of all NUM members....which again I reiterate never happened.

If there had been a ballot (that as you seem to presume would be a massive yes to a strike, however, I am not so sure) the UDM might not have broken away from the NUM. Which eventually led to the crumbling of the strike.

Still King Arthur knew best eh.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

If you can source anything cheaper from one place than another the more expensive one IS uneconomic!

In the long run it will have cost more to pay benefits to the thousands who lost their jobs and never worked again.

 

[Simster]

Why then, during the last knockings of Gordon Brown's tenure as Labour leader did you post that labour " need to get rid of brown and get (david ) miliband in now , or We'll lose the next election ?

I'm not aware that I did. But unlike Beach Hut (you won't hear a peep of any relevance out of him) I will at least attempt to answer an awkward question.

I am certainly economically left of the Tory party, but have no affiliation to the Labour party, Lib Dems, Greens or anyone else. Perhaps the "we'll" was in the context of "Tory" and "anyone else", I don't know.

 

[Simster]

50,000 posts of dull bollocks but when faced with needing to post some substance it's all gone quiet with Beach Hut.

Never saw that coming.

 

[Beach Hut]

The labour lefties are gunning for me - I just love you all you luvvies

 

[Beach Hut]

50,000 posts of dull bollocks but when faced with needing to post some substance it's all gone quiet with Beach Hut.

Never saw that coming.

Oh dear, prove to me this prove to me that I support a better party than you - NSC mob mentality here we go

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

Blair led Britain to war under false pretense in both Iraq and Afghanistan, both of which were not only illegal but strategically disastrous. He also deregulated the city and allowed the banks to determine economic policy that ended up in one of the worst crisis in British history.

Blair's economic policies have polarized society to the point where the divide between rich and poor is greater than in any time in human history, and the ladder upon which he climbed to get to the top was kicked down one rung at a time. Free university is a thing of the past, and unlike Blair, today's brightest must go into massive debt if they have a chance of financial success. Property prices have ballooned to the point where many workers cannot afford to live in the city they work in, and wages for the majority of the population has stagnated even though the cost of living is rising.

While Blair may still think he 'did the right thing', most of the people he presided in power over don't. While he insists that everyone outside of Britain loves him, he wasn't their prime minister, so it doesn't really matter. Hundreds and thousands of lives have been lost through his decisions, and millions of people have suffered immeasurably due to the economic implosion that he helped create.

The fact that he is earning millions of pounds through speaking and advising banks just makes it that much more offensive, and he shouldn't spend too much time wondering why the public harbours such visceral resentment.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Prove it then, all ears

Can I hold simster's coat and be his second!

I think most sensible people would admit that the unions were too strong and needed curbing - and I say this as a union member. I think most people would agree that Thatcher took it too far the other way.

And having driven through a number of former mining communities over a couple of days during a visit to County Durham in February, it is shockingwhat has been left behind through the then Government's total lack of effort to put anything in place to replace the mining economy - almost as if she wanted to punish the communities......... I'll leave people to work that one out for themselves.

Personally, I would rate her as the worst Prime Minister of the 20th century.... by quite a long way. She did most to create the selfish greedy attitudes which prevail and which that nice(?) Mr Cameron is now needing to address with the Big Society Stuff, although ven he now seems to want to stop people being philanthropic.

My Latin Master at School in the late 60's - and no, it wasn't a Public School - said that what this country needs is a benevolent dictatorship, but that is an oxymoron (i.e. two words which contradict each other). Maybe he was right.

And I much prefer Blair to Thatcher.... if that is not already apparent from the rest of this rant, Iraq war and weapons of mass destruction notwithstanding.

 

[Beach Hut]

Where are your facts? You just sound like a tool with your dull, one sentence responses. You literally add nothing to the debate beyond your mantra that Labour is always wrong.

Yes, we know you think that. Now tell us why. And tell us why you're so convinced that Blair was more hated than Thatcher.

I suspect Blair is hated a lot more as I have said for WMD and a recession but make your own choices and shout me down as all you lefties do

 

[Beach Hut]

Also Thatcher created the wealth of the City with the big bang on share dealing but oh no that was another nail in her coffin creating a huge financial services industry of which labour failed to regulate on their watch

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

In hindsight do you not think it would have been a good idea to call a ballot of all NUM members....which again I reiterate never happened.

If there had been a ballot (that as you seem to presume would be a massive yes to a strike, however, I am not so sure) the UDM might not have broken away from the NUM. Which eventually led to the crumbling of the strike.

Still King Arthur knew best eh.

Scargill made the mistake of thinking a ballot might not achieve the result he wanted in terms of percentages/turnout even though it would be a resounding YES vote. Had the pit deputies union , NACODS , called a ballot at the same time then Scargill would have changed his mind once he saw the result.

 

[keaton]

I think if Beach Hut keeps on acting like a massive bellend more people will hate him than either of them

 

[Sussex Nomad]

I can accept that mining coal in this country was at some point going to become unviable. However, just letting them close as Thatcher did is an absolutely shit example of macro economic management. Closing down the mines cost thousands their jobs. Which in turn cost thousands more their livelihoods in lost income at shops that no longer had miner customers. Which in turn closes down businesses. And how much money does it all cost? Well, for a start, there is the loss in tax revenue from all of these sources, then the fact that benefits start needing to be paid to out of work miners. Plus crime soars as unemployment rises, and we all know what the miner's strike did to community relations with the police.

This is all very well and good, but what part did Scargill play in the same show? Surely as a politician of sorts himself, he knew that bringing out miners to strike, non balloted at that, would devastate communities? He called an action and the Government reacted. Joe Gormley, the former President of the NUM did bring down a Government, this time the Government was prepared. Also didn't Scargill make himself President for life of the NUM in some Nazi style pincer movement? Consett, a traditional mining community in Durham managed to drag their arses out of post mining depression. Why were they not used as a model by other communities? The privatised mines were those that walked away from the NUM, namely those in Nottinghamshire. They set up their own union (forget its name but I'm sure the word democratic was in there) and actually made their mines profitable long after the NUM had ruined the lives of 1000's.

Personally I think the detractors should look at the downfall of the mines, not so much through the eyes of hatred for Thatcher, but more the sheep herding style of Scargill.