Miners Strike

[Gritt23]

Alright Barbara, keep yer Alan's on. This is 30 years later.

Lol. No idea what you mean, but it did make me laugh.

Was it supposed to?

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Totally incorrect, most mines were still perfectly capable of turning a profit

Herein lies the problem , they were made to appear uneconomic and loss making by importing cheaper coal from Poland. The Tory mantra was privatisation of all state owned industry. As result of the miner's strike the backbone of the trades union movement was broken beyond repair. Nearly 30 years on all we are left with is about a dozen mines in the private sector.

 

[The Large One]

How many did Labour shut in the 10 years prior to Thatcher to balance the debate, do tell?

Labour weren't in power for 10 years prior to Thatcher.

 

[simmo]

Ahh the sweet smell of innocent naivety......

The National Conference of the NUM had already approved the strike.

It's not naive, it's correct. There was no ballot of any miners about calling a strike. This caused a split between the miners i.e those who did and those who did not want an immediate complete all out strike. This actually lead to a breakaway from the NUM of the U(nion) D(emocratcic) M(iners) whom wanted to work (predominately around Nottinghamshire).

It was Scargill's utter crapness at leading his members that led to the miners downfall. The man wanted a fight (well really a revolution) got one and lost.....and dragged the miners (whom not all were behind him by any means causing the union to split) and the industry down with him.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I would, remind me where are those weapons of mass destruction ?

I've no interest in starting another dull argument with you, thanks.

My point was not that a lot of people don't dislike Blair, for the decisions he made - a great many clearly do. My point was that I think you under-estimate the level of HATRED that a lot of people still hold for Margaret Thatcher.

It wasn't just the hard edged decisions she took, but also, the total lack of empathy that she displayed. It made it easy to caricature her almost as a witch.

On a personal level, when Thatcher was in power, I was an ideallistic, impressionable, politically active student, rather than the married, setlled family man of Blair's tenure. Things are much more black and white in those times, and my personal feelings regarding Thatcher and her legacy are subsequently far stronger than toward Blair and his.

 

[Nibble]

There is no way on Gods earth that Blair is hated as much as Thatcher in this country. Absolutely no way.

Exactly, at least Blair, at the beginning made huge leaps forward in social reform. Thatcher just got stuck in the minute she was an MP and as soon as she became PM you could kiss goodbye to a fair country. This is unfortunately what happens when women are given any kind of power. It happens with women in the workplace, they feel they've had to work harder so feel they must impress their authority but lose sight of what they are actually there to do, but on a much bigger scale. Shame really, because some women show potential until they actually get what they wish for.

 

[Gritt23]

I'm not arguing that Scargill didn't have his own agenda, but it saddens me to think that Thatcherites can white wash everything that went on with this idea that Scargill deliberately manipulated a mass of mute miners as if there was nothing at stake except the future of the Tories in government. It's a nonsense. Thousands of British workers lost their jobs over this, arguably needlessly.

Ah, and now we trip across my particular frustration in all debates like this.

Presumably, I class as a Thatcherite, as overall, I think she did a lot of good for this country. Ok, fine, but why does that mean anyone who takes a different viewpoint would assume I "white wash everything"? Life isn't as black and white as that, why do debates have to polarise everyone to one extreme or the other. Mistakes were made on both sides, but overall I think Thatcher needed to address the problems we were facing in teh mining industry and standing up to the unions was a massive win for the country as pre-Thatcher they had just become far too powerful ... and in some industries remained so for many years after the miners strike.

 

[Beach Hut]

I've no interest in starting another dull argument with you, thanks.

My point was not that a lot of people don't dislike Blair, for the decisions he made - a great many clearly do. My point was that I think you under-estimate the level of HATRED that a lot of people still hold for Margaret Thatcher.

It wasn't just the hard edged decisions she took, but also, the total lack of empathy that she displayed. It made it easy to caricature her almost as a witch.

On a personal level, when Thatcher was in power, I was an ideallistic, impressionable, politically active student, rather than the married, setlled family man of Blair's tenure. Things are much more black and white in those times, and my personal feelings regarding Thatcher and her legacy are subsequently far stronger than toward Blair and his.

Off course you have no interest you just want me to agree with you which I don't.

Everybody clearly love labour for entering a war on a lie and also forcing the country into a huge recession - what a wonderful life they have given us all

 

[Beach Hut]

Exactly, at least Blair, at the beginning made huge leaps forward in social reform. Thatcher just got stuck in the minute she was an MP and as soon as she became PM you could kiss goodbye to a fair country. This is unfortunately what happens when women are given any kind of power. It happens with women in the workplace, they feel they've had to work harder so feel they must impress their authority but lose sight of what they are actually there to do, but on a much bigger scale. Shame really, because some women show potential until they actually get what they wish for.

I take most of your managers have been women then so you despise them as they might be better than you at your job ?

 

[Simster]

Prove it then, all ears

I will when you do. And it was you who first said it was the case.

But I can leave you with anecdotal evidence of how she polarised opinion: I was once walking about in central London when I came across the biggest queue I have ever seen from a shop - it must have been several hundred people. As I approached the source, I saw SIX armed police at the front of a book shop, and a sign proclaiming Margaret Thatcher was signing her autobiography.

A queue that size was not normal, and nor was the need for armed police. Considering I once literally bumped into Ken Clarke in duty free at Heathrow when he was chancellor of the exchequor at the time with no obvious security in sight, I think that tells you all you need to know about Thatcher. You either loved her or hated her.

She was voted in by 40% of the popular vote at most, and an awful lot of those votes were by default as Labour were considered a shambles for several years by middle England. So there is no way that more than half of those voters considered her "the greatest post war leader" I'm afraid, whatever sycophants like you choose to peddle.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

It's not naive, it's correct. There was no ballot of any miners about calling a strike. This caused a split between the miners i.e those who did and those who did not want an immediate complete all out strike. This actually lead to a breakaway from the NUM of the U(nion) D(emocratcic) M(iners) whom wanted to work (predominately around Nottinghamshire).

It was Scargill's utter crapness at leading his members that led to the miners downfall. The man wanted a fight (well really a revolution) got one and lost.....and dragged the miners (whom not all were behind him by any means causing the union to split) and the industry down with him.

There was no need to call a ballot , the resolution to take industrial action had been passed at NUM conference where the delegates had been instructed which way to vote by rank and file branch members.

 

[Beach Hut]

I will when you do. And it was you who first said it was the case.

But I can leave you with anecdotal evidence of how she polarised opinion: I was once walking about in central London when I came across the biggest queue I have ever seen from a shop - it must have been several hundred people. As I approached the source, I saw SIX armed police at the front of a book shop, and a sign proclaiming Margaret Thatcher was signing her autobiography.

A queue that size was not normal, and nor was the need for armed police. Considering I once literally bumped into Ken Clarke in duty free at Heathrow when he was chancellor of the exchequor at the time with no obvious security in sight, I think that tells you all you need to know about Thatcher. You either loved her or hated her.

She was voted in by 40% of the popular vote at most, and an awful lot of those votes were by default as Labour were considered a shambles for several years by middle England. So there is no way that more than half of those voters considered her "the greatest post war leader" I'm afraid, whatever sycophants like you choose to peddle.

Ah, nice and defensive you seem so certain but now shift the blame - I take you are a labour supported as this is generally what they do

 

[Medwayseagull]

I suspect many more people hate blair for taking us into a war we should not be in

Thats how he managed to win the 2005 General Election then ? Some of the Tories on here are unbelievably blinkered and stupid.

 

[jakarta]

There was no doubt a political agenda from the Thatcher Government having seen the previous (Heath) administration humiliated by the Miners.

However to my mind it was mostly economics that drove this process, as has been mentioned several times. Even with modern technology no-one is reopening deep coal mines in the UK because cheaper coal is available elsewhere in the world.

As a contrast my understanding (and I do work out there now & again) is that some of the supposedly worked out North Sea oil fields may well be re-started as it is economic so to do - they won't use the old technology of Platforms but sub-sea well heads and FPSO's etc..

Quite agree that more should have done to phase the closures and provide re-training but as I said previously I am more upset at the loss of our metal bashing industries, I have no romantic attachment to coal mining, it is literally a filthy business...

 

[Simster]

Off course you have no interest you just want me to agree with you which I don't.

Everybody clearly love labour for entering a war on a lie and also forcing the country into a huge recession - what a wonderful life they have given us all

You sound like a simpleton when you go off on one like that. No-one is saying Labour should be thanked for sending us to war ARE THEY?

 

[JCL666]

And therein lies the flawed logic of strikes, because the length of strike, and the lack of maintenance of equipment during this period only makes it more likely that MORE closures happen. It's the case in a lot of businesses, but in an industry that is so dangerous to start with, and where equipment was probably needing pretty regular maintenance, it just exacerbated the problem.

It's one thing to try to argue with the Givernment that one mine or another could stay open and remain economic, but the longer teh strike continued the harder that argument would become to win, because of the reasons you give.

It's clear that the governments actions were not about just closing down uneconomic mines. They picked a fight with one of the most powerful labour movements in the country, with the intention of striking a blow against union power as per the Ridley report.

Regardless of whether or not people agree with organised labour, the method by which it was done had a disastrous impact on local communities which they have still not recovered from.

 

[Simster]

Ah, nice and defensive you seem so certain but now shift the blame - I take you are a labour supported as this is generally what they do

Shift the blame? What the f*** are you on about? YOU said Blair was more unpopular than Thatch. I disagreed. YOU asked ME to prove I was right without bothering to do so yourself.

And no, I'm not a Labour supporter.

 

[The Large One]

Off course you have no interest you just want me to agree with you which I don't.

Everybody clearly love labour for entering a war on a lie and also forcing the country into a huge recession - what a wonderful life they have given us all

What the f*** in the name of Sam Allardyce's ringpiece are you on about...?

 

[Beach Hut]

What the f*** in the name of Sam Allardyce's ringpiece are you on about...?

Scoring points with facts which labour supports struggle to understand

 

[Publius Ovidius]

having family in Yorkshire who were directly affected by this I do have prejudiced views, suffice it to say heavy industry in teh UK was seen as a bad thing by the thatcher regime at the time, steel, coal, ship building, railways, car industry and all were heavily unionised which the tories ( and labour) realised were far too powerful and therefore Thatcher used teh miners strike as a perfect excuse to break the unions and in part it succeeded.

To be fair, industry never really recovered and the state we are in now where the finance sector can through bad judgements bring the country to its knees with precious little manufacturing to pick up the slack is one of teh byproducts of a society that does not actually produce anything that anyone wants ( or is too expensive)