[Politics] May 2021 local elections and Hartlepool by-election

[JC Footy Genius]

Ah yes, because I oppose the Tories and point out government failings and corruption that sycophants like yourself want to sweep under the rug, I must be a communist or some kind of far left nutter. What an astute observation you’ve made

I'll let you off tonight, its been a rough day for Labour and you have several more years to work out where you went wrong before finally mounting a serious challenge for power!

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[beorhthelm]

We literally have one of the best vaccination programmes in the world. It’s been a truly remarkable effort saving thousands of lives. Or are we not allowed to count that?

no. we're only supposed to count the scatter gun approach last year, which every country followed with various degrees of success or failure.

 

[GT49er]

Right back at ya

Errrmmmm ................... yes, absolutely. Dianne Abbott right on, OK. Or do you have some sort of different agenda? Right back at ya (whatever that means). Fam, bruv?

(Sorry if I've completely misunderstood what you are on about - you might be a perfectly reasonable individual ......... but on the other hand, 'right back at ya' .......... wtf ......... ............. yoof, innit ........?

 

[pastafarian]

It hasn’t led to left wing European governments or parliaments across all of Europe.

Macron follows an ever more right agenda in fending off Le Pen (Owen Jones has written about this since 2018), a pro Franco party has a sizeable chunk of the Spanish parliament, Slovenia, Hungary and Poland have hard right presidents.

Our European chums are blooming bonkers. Mind you most of the planet including us is on and off crackers when it comes to politics. Us poor saps are just left to watch the never ending car crash.

 

[Weststander]

Our European chums are blooming bonkers. Mind you most of the planet including us is on and off crackers when it comes to politics. Us poor saps are just left to watch the never ending car crash.

Entertainment for us NSC’ers who find politics interesting at times.

But boring for everyone else

 

[KeithDublin]

OK, you stay angry. I'll just stick with opposing racism and not judging people on the colour of their skin.

The colour of one's skin is not a lifestyle choice; being 'woke' is a lifestyle choice - and therefore by definition it is legitimate for it to be questioned and debated, not least for its unrelenting intolerance of anyone remotely critical of it.

genuine question: can you tell me something, that a 'woke' person has said, you can or can't do, that you disagree with? I'd just like an example.

 

[pastafarian]

Entertainment for us NSC’ers who find politics interesting at times.

But boring for everyone else

Talking of entertainment my New Order - education entertainment recreation - arrived this afternoon. I have business to attend to.

 

[Weststander]

Talking of entertainment my New Order - education entertainment recreation - arrived this afternoon. I have business to attend to.

That passed me by entirely, something to look at tomorrow .

 

[Beach Hut]

Labour will suffer for quite a while with the Corbyn issue, total cock up beyond belief add in an IRA sympathiser as deputy head, anti-semitism issue and a very rocky road.

Starmer may turn it around however until they have a vision they are a dead duck politically.

Someone, somewhere needs to step up to the plate as a creditable alternative.......

 

[Iggle Piggle]

genuine question: can you tell me something, that a 'woke' person has said, you can or can't do, that you disagree with? I'd just like an example.

Appreciate this wasn't levelled at me - and there has been posts in this thread you've made I've agreed with - but the trouble with the woke brigade is that it wont resonate with those voting in Hartlepool. That's the point. Starmer on one knee - for example- is another Tory vote right there as he'd never do anything similar symbolically for the working class.

 

[KeithDublin]

Appreciate this wasn't levelled at me - and there has been posts in this thread you've made I've agreed with - but the trouble with the woke brigade is that it wont resonate with those voting in Hartlepool. That's the point. Starmer on one knee - for example- is another Tory vote right there as he'd never do anything similar symbolically for the working class.

I agree that 'woke brigade' won't resonate with a section of the working classes. That's not my point. So Starmer went down to one knee to show solidarity with anti racism? Is that wrong? You could claim it's performative, and you might be right. Are people of colour not members of the working class?

People often say being 'woke' is bad, but I'd love a real life example of where a 'woke' person has stopped them saying or doing something. In America the right wing always go on about how universities have become marxist/ left wing havens where you have to say the right thing. I have asked countless people to give me an example of something they can no longer say at University, and I've never, once been given an answer.

 

[Weststander]

I agree that 'woke brigade' won't resonate with a section of the working classes. That's not my point. So Starmer went down to one knee to show solidarity with anti racism? Is that wrong? You could claim it's performative, and you might be right. Are people of colour not members of the working class?

People often say being 'woke' is bad, but I'd love a real life example of where a 'woke' person has stopped them saying or doing something. In America the right wing always go on about how universities have become marxist/ left wing havens where you have to say the right thing. I have asked countless people to give me an example of something they can no longer say at University, and I've never, once been given an answer.

Can I put forward Cancel Culture at many UK universities?

For example, Amber Rudd (centre right and a Remainer, so certainly not Tommy Robinson), was disinvited at short notice from speaking at the University of Oxford, targeted by a women’s group. Similarly transgender rights speakers being targeted by feminist groups from speaking at uni’s.

It was widely condemned. University Vice Chancellors have now decided to oppose this, uni’s were meant to be a melting pot of ideas. NOT one particular view on the world.

 

[Eeyore]

Year 11 of opposition and still blaming the electorate/media anything but having a long hard look in the mirror [emoji106]

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Although, sorry to keep beating the drum, the government has never secured a majority of the country's vote. In any other nation, under proportional representation, the Tories would not have been in government here since as far back as 1987 under a one person equal vote system. Labour likely to align with the centre and others. Tories have only Irish parties. Of course, the landscape would have changed under that system so Labour et al would likely have had periods out of power.

One person, one vote is the only true representation. No government here has had a majority in my lifetime except in 2010 when Cameron and Clegg hooked up. No-one has yet given me a coherent argument as to why a vote in the shires for Labour and a vote in some industrial cities for the Tories, should have absolutely no chance of influencing the eventual make up of parliament.

So why have Labour lost the northern seats ? Policy ? No. I suspect most of the citizens in Hartlepool, like elsewhere, couldn't name five of them. They could spew media headlines though.

A safe seat in 2017 (under Corbyn) it became a marginal in 2019. What had changed ? Hartlepool was two-thirds leave for Brexit, so that turned things round in 2019. Since then we have the Falklands style vaccine bounce. Like in 1983 when Thatcher was re-elected after taking us into a conflict that could have been avoided and even lost if the weather hadn't been bad when the Argies located our carriers, or if they simply held on another week. People forget the bad stuff, politics runs on sentiment and feeling. The narrative is dictated. At the moment it's 'freedom is coming (Vaccine and Brexit)' and 'the EU is now our enemy'. It's been apparent for a few years. I said in 2016 there would be a lurch to the right.

The folk of Hartlepool and similar had no issue with Corbyn. He would probably have polled better here (as in 2017). 2019 was a single issue election.

Labour were unlikely to form a majority under Corbyn but Starmer will likely make things worse. The Tories have the vaccine wave, the right wing and have stolen the centre ground before Starmer got there. They have made inroads into the left with Brexit as their crowbar. Labour, for a while, possibly years, is ****ed whatever they do. Until things turn sour. And that normally depends on how things are presented more than reality itself.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

I agree that 'woke brigade' won't resonate with a section of the working classes. That's not my point. So Starmer went down to one knee to show solidarity with anti racism? Is that wrong? You could claim it's performative, and you might be right. Are people of colour not members of the working class?

People often say being 'woke' is bad, but I'd love a real life example of where a 'woke' person has stopped them saying or doing something. In America the right wing always go on about how universities have become marxist/ left wing havens where you have to say the right thing. I have asked countless people to give me an example of something they can no longer say at University, and I've never, once been given an answer.

Depends what you mean by woke is bad. The brickies, roofers and army boys that I speak to think KS couldn’t give a shit about them or their concerns and they certaintly don't give a shit about woke issues. Personally, I like him and think he is a vast improvement on JC and I've never voted Tory and probably never will but that message is not cutting through. At what point after countless Tory governments and Brexit do we address the concerns of those that vote this way? Labour got Hartlepool massively wrong. The vote is clear.

 

[KeithDublin]

Can I put forward Cancel Culture at many UK universities?

For example, Amber Rudd (centre right and a Remainer, so certainly not Tommy Robinson), was disinvited at short notice from speaking at the University of Oxford, targeted by a women’s group. Similarly transgender rights speakers being targeted by feminist groups from speaking at uni’s.

It was widely condemned. University Vice Chancellors have now decided to oppose this, uni’s were meant to be a melting pot of ideas. NOT one particular view on the world.

I looked up the Amber Rudd thing, looks like she was cancelled for her support/ involvement in windrush. That was protest against a particular person, not stopping someone saying something.

As for a terf protesting a trans rights person, then it looks like everyone from all political persuasions likes a bit of cancel culture.

 

[KeithDublin]

Depends what you mean by woke is bad. The brickies, roofers and army boys that I speak to think KS couldn’t give a shit about them or their concerns and they certaintly don't give a shit about woke issues. Personally, I like him and think he is a vast improvement on JC and I've never voted Tory and probably never will but that message is not cutting through. At what point after countless Tory governments and Brexit do we address the concerns of those that vote this way? Labour got Hartlepool massively wrong. The vote is clear.

But the majority of the woke thing, is just bullshit made up and blown out of proportion by the right. Take a look a Corbyn's policies (ignoring brexit ones, because that's a different matter)

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50501411

Which ones of these are woke? Which ones would your mates disagree with?

 

[wellquickwoody]

[tweet]1390739509768335360[/tweet]


That reminds me of the woman who said, in a voxpop, she couldn't vote for Corbyn because he wanted to do away with food banks, and 'I need my foodbank'.

Unfortunately you really couldn’t make it up

Apparently rampant government corruption and letting the “bodies pile high” wasn’t a deal breaker for some people

You get what you vote for for. And apparently you are content with corruption from the very top and one of the worst COVID responses in the world.

Funny thing is, Corbyn’s policies are considered centre left in large parts of European politics (and seemed popular amongst the electorate, especially the youth). It really shows how far to the right we have lurched in the last decade that these progressive politics are considered in anyway “far left”.

The only people I’m blaming are the Tories and their utter contempt for the British public. If you buy into that sort of thing, that’s your look out.

Anyone where else you can lay some blame?

 

[wellquickwoody]

genuine question: can you tell me something, that a 'woke' person has said, you can or can't do, that you disagree with? I'd just like an example.

The woke classes claimed that not offering unequivocal, ongoing support of ‘taking the knee’ immediately made someone a racist?

And don’t ask for a specific quote as you well know that was a common reaction from many, many supporters of BLM.

OUT OF TOUCH

 

[dsr-burnley]

I looked up the Amber Rudd thing, looks like she was cancelled for her support/ involvement in windrush. That was protest against a particular person, not stopping someone saying something.

You might need to explain the Amber Rudd thing a bit further. You're saying that when they prevented her from speaking, they didn't actually prevent her from speaking?

 

[Seagull1989]

I joined the Labour Party when Corbyn was leader and had never been part of a political party previously. I also voted for Starmer in the most recent leadership election, as I thought he was the best chance of taking on the Tories. A swing labour voter, if that’s such a thing. I do not think Corbyn would have done any better at these local elections, the infighting in Labour at the moment has alienated everyone.

Moving forward, the only way I can see Labour getting back into power is by forming a progressive alliance and promising to change the voting system to PR. The SNP probably wouldn’t want PR as they get a high number of seats with the FPTP system. Therefore, to appease the SNP, Labour are going to have to offer an Indy Ref 2, which will break up the union and we will be back to the Miliband/Cameron election of the Tories saying that Labour/SNP coalition would be chaos. Ultimately, I can’t see anything other than a Conservative majority for at least the next 2 elections.