Main Coronavirus / Covid-19 Discussion Thread

[Cotton Socks]

This is batshit scary if true, the state overrules parents;

Teenagers can overrule their parents on a decision to have the Covid-19 vaccination if jabs are introduced for 12- to 15-year-olds, the vaccines minister has said.

Nadhim Zahawi said that if a 12- to 15-year-olds wanted to receive the jab and was judged to be “competent” then their decision would overrule the parents’ refusal for their child to be vaccinated.

Link?
That is genuinely scary. There are times when it is legitimate to interfere with parenting but not when the risk to children is negligible. It's more the principle of taking away the parents rights rather than the vaccine itself. If this does happen then it won't be long before over 12's are refused entry to the football etc without proof of double jab. Just the simple act of the government telling kids that they can tell their parents to basically f**k off and they will do what they like, sets a precedent for the child to do it with other things.
Ok that may be slightly over the top but I can see it happening. It has the danger of putting in a mindset that they are old enough to make adult decisions for themselves. "Well I've read up on cannabis and there's no evidence to say it's really bad for you, I'm old enough to decide whether I want the jab so I'm old enough to decide what to put in my body". I wouldn't want to be a parent that has to argue with that, if they're trying another argument to the fact it's illegal.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Link?
That is genuinely scary. There are times when it is legitimate to interfere with parenting but not when the risk to children is negligible. It's more the principle of taking away the parents rights rather than the vaccine itself. If this does happen then it won't be long before over 12's are refused entry to the football etc without proof of double jab. Just the simple act of the government telling kids that they can tell their parents to basically f**k off and they will do what they like, sets a precedent for the child to do it with other things.
Ok that may be slightly over the top but I can see it happening. It has the danger of putting in a mindset that they are old enough to make adult decisions for themselves. "Well I've read up on cannabis and there's no evidence to say it's really bad for you, I'm old enough to decide whether I want the jab so I'm old enough to decide what to put in my body". I wouldn't want to be a parent that has to argue with that, if they're trying another argument to the fact it's illegal.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ule-parents-take-covid-vaccine-says-minister/

Vaccine passports, 12 year olds potentially over riding parents choices on vaccine



Completely normal behaviour.

 

[Cotton Socks]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ule-parents-take-covid-vaccine-says-minister/

Vaccine passports, 12 year olds potentially over riding parents choices on vaccine



Completely normal behaviour.

It's behind a paywall. I've just said to my son that if for some reason I didn't want him to have the vaccine the government have said you can decide for yourself, his response "Why can't they do that for other things as well."

There is also a flip side to this, that if a child doesn't want the vaccine will they still have the right to choose if they are considered competent? I can't say that my kids have ever been keen to have vaccines, one has had 3 in the last 2 years. He's said each time he doesn't want a injection, I've said each time, "tough you're having it".

 

[n1 gull]

It's behind a paywall. I've just said to my son that if for some reason I didn't want him to have the vaccine the government have said you can decide for yourself, his response "Why can't they do that for other things as well."

There is also a flip side to this, that if a child doesn't want the vaccine will they still have the right to choose if they are considered competent? I can't say that my kids have ever been keen to have vaccines, one has had 3 in the last 2 years. He's said each time he doesn't want a injection, I've said each time, "tough you're having it".

Teenagers can overrule their parents on a decision to have the Covid-19 vaccination if jabs are introduced for 12- to 15-year-olds, the vaccines minister has said.

Nadhim Zahawi said that if a 12- to 15-year-olds wanted to receive the jab and was judged to be “competent” then their decision would overrule the parents’ refusal for their child to be vaccinated.

The NHS is drawing up plans for teenagers to be vaccinated and government ministers could defy the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation and go ahead with jabs for all 12- to 15-year-olds. They are awaiting a decision from the UK’s chief medical officers.

On Friday, the JCVI said while the health benefits of vaccinating that age group were greater than the risks “the margin of benefit is considered too small to support universal vaccination of healthy 12- to 15-year-olds at this time”.

Instead, the committee recommended expanding the vaccination programme to include an extra 200,000 teenagers with specific underlying conditions.

In an interview with Times Radio on Sunday morning, Mr Zahawi was asked what NHS clinicians could do if a parent says no to their child being vaccinated but the teenager says yes.

He replied: “The NHS is really well practised in this because they’ve been doing school immunisation programmes for a very long time so what you essentially do is make sure that the clinicians discuss this with the parents, with the teenager, and if they are then deemed to be able to make a decision that is competent then that decision will go in the favour of what the teenager decides to do.”

The vaccines minister also said a decision by the UK’s chief medical officers on whether to vaccinate all 12- to 15-year-olds may not come this week. "They're looking at that in the next few days and weeks,” he said.

Placeholder image for youtube video: 4zGEm_EyI3U
The decision not to recommend the vaccine to all healthy children was based on concern over an extremely rare side effect of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines that causes heart inflammation.

The JCVI said in a statement: “The available evidence indicates that the individual health benefits from COVID-19 vaccination are small in those aged 12 to 15 years who do not have underlying health conditions which put them at risk of severe COVID-19. The potential risks from vaccination are also small, with reports of post-vaccination myocarditis being very rare, but potentially serious and still in the process of being described. “Given the rarity of these events and the limited follow-up time of children and young people with post-vaccination myocarditis, substantial uncertainty remains regarding the health risks associated with these adverse events.

“Overall, the committee is of the opinion that the benefits from vaccination are marginally greater than the potential known harms (tables 1 to 4) but acknowledges that there is considerable uncertainty regarding the magnitude of the potential harms. The margin of benefit, based primarily on a health perspective, is considered too small to support advice on a universal programme of vaccination of otherwise healthy 12 to 15-year-old children at this time. As longer-term data on potential adverse reactions accrue, greater certainty may allow for a reconsideration of the benefits and harms. Such data may not be available for several months.”

Following the JCVI announcement, Sajid Javid, the Health Secretary, and his counterparts in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland wrote to the chief medical officers in their countries, asking them to “consider the matter from a broader perspective”.

Other countries are pressing ahead with vaccinating this age group. The United States is recommending that all over-12s be vaccinated and France, Germany and Italy are offering the vaccine to this age group.

Those aged 12-15 are already eligible for the jab if they are at higher risk due to severe neurodisability, Down’s syndrome, a severely weakened immune system (including some children with cancer) and profound and multiple learning difficulties.

Following the JCVI’s decision a further 200,000 children in this age group who have chronic heart, lung and liver conditions could also be given two doses.

The overall risk of children becoming severely ill or dying from Covid is very low. Studies have found that Covid-19 caused just 25 deaths in under 18 year olds between March 2020 and February 2021.

Meanwhile a prominent adviser to the Government on Covid-19 said he was “a little surprised” at the JCVI’s decision.

Prof Openshaw, a member of the New and Emerging Respiratory Virus Threats Advisory Group (Nervtag) which advises the Government, said: “We do know the virus is circulating very widely amongst this age group, and that if we’re going to be able to get the rates down and also prevent further surges of infection perhaps later in the winter, then this is the group that needs to become immune,” he said.


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[crodonilson]

Register


News
Covid lockdown: The Government is planning October ‘firebreak’ restrictions if hospital admissions stay high
EXCLUSIVEA senior Government scientist and Sage member has told i half-term could be extended to two weeks in late October if NHS is pushed to the brink of capacity
AIRDRIE, SCOTLAND - FEBRUARY 05: A member of staff at University Hospital Monklands attends to a Covid-positive patient on the ICU ward on February 5, 2021 in Airdrie, Scotland. The numbers of patients with Coronavirus at Lanarkshire hospitals hit record levels during Scotland's second wave of the pandemic with ICU staff members left feeling physically and emotionally drained. Patients admitted to Monklands ICU are much younger during this second wave, many with no underlying health conditions, which differ from the first wave where patients were more likely to be elderly and often ill before they contracted the virus. Figures published by Public Health Scotland on February 5 showed that 61 more Covid-positive patients who tested positive have died bringing the total to 6,383 and the total confirming as positive has risen by 895 to 184,313. (Photo by Jeff J Mitchell/Getty Images)

author avatar image
By David Parsley
September 6, 2021 4:46 pm(Updated 9:06 pm)
The Government has drawn up plans for an October “firebreak” Covid lockdown should hospitalisations continue at their current level and threaten to overload the NHS, a senior Government scientist has told i.

The member of the Government’s Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) said the UK is about to enter “an extended peak” of infections and hospitalisations, which are in danger of pushing the NHS beyond breaking point and could force the Government to re-introduce restrictions over the school half term period at the end of next month.

A full lockdown is unlikely and would be a last resort, but there are a range of measures the government could introduce.

News and analysis, direct from Westminster to your inbox
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“This is essentially the precautionary break that Sage suggested last year,” said the Sage source. “It would be sensible to have contingency plans, and if a lockdown is required, to time it so that it has minimal economic and societal impact.”

The Government scientist added that while Covid deaths are significantly higher than at the same point 12 months ago, they would have to rise fivefold to match those experienced in late October last year.

“We are going to be at a peak, albeit an extended peak, quite soon, so it’s not really the same situation as last year, when failure to reduce prevalence would have resulted in collapse of NHS and people dying in car parks,” he added.

“Hospitals might be overflowing before deaths reach the same level. Acting early will prevent this level.”


It is understood that the Government’s contingency plan for a “firebreak” lockdown could lead to an extension of the half-term, from one week for most schools to two weeks from late October into early November.

It is believed the closure of schools during the summer holidays has helped avoid a major rise in cases since the ending of restrictions since lockdown restrictions were lifted on July 19. Meanwhile, the return of schools in Scotland last month appears to have sparked a surge in infections.

Over the weekend, the Government confirmed it intended to push ahead with Covid passports for entry into mass events and nightclubs, with vaccines minister Nadhim Zahawi adding this was the “best way” to avoid having to re-impose coronavirus restrictions in the winter.

Boris Johnson is also believed to be prepared to re-introduce mask wearing and social distancing inside public spaces and on transport as early as this month in a move designed to stem hospital admissions and prevent the UK’s fourth lockdown.

If the Government fails to reduce the level of hospitalisations – which have consistently been above 900 a day over the past two weeks – the Prime Minister will consider whether or not a range of additional Covid restrictions are required. These could range from a return to social distancing and a limit on gatherings in homes and indoor public spaces to a full, but short term closing of the economy during which all but non-essential shops will be permitted to remain open.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Register


News
Covid lockdown: The Government is planning October ‘firebreak’ restrictions if hospital admissions stay high
EXCLUSIVEA senior Government scientist and Sage member has told i half-term could be extended to two weeks in late October if NHS is pushed to the brink of capacity
AIRDRIE, SCOTLAND - FEBRUARY 05: A member of staff at University Hospital Monklands attends to a Covid-positive patient on the ICU ward on February 5, 2021 in Airdrie, Scotland. The numbers of patients with Coronavirus at Lanarkshire hospitals hit record levels during Scotland's second wave of the pandemic with ICU staff members left feeling physically and emotionally drained. Patients admitted to Monklands ICU are much younger during this second wave, many with no underlying health conditions, which differ from the first wave where patients were more likely to be elderly and often ill before they contracted the virus. Figures published by Public Health Scotland on February 5 showed that 61 more Covid-positive patients who tested positive have died bringing the total to 6,383 and the total confirming as positive has risen by 895 to 184,313. (Photo by Jeff J Mitchell/Getty Images)

author avatar image
By David Parsley
September 6, 2021 4:46 pm(Updated 9:06 pm)
The Government has drawn up plans for an October “firebreak” Covid lockdown should hospitalisations continue at their current level and threaten to overload the NHS, a senior Government scientist has told i.

The member of the Government’s Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) said the UK is about to enter “an extended peak” of infections and hospitalisations, which are in danger of pushing the NHS beyond breaking point and could force the Government to re-introduce restrictions over the school half term period at the end of next month.

A full lockdown is unlikely and would be a last resort, but there are a range of measures the government could introduce.

News and analysis, direct from Westminster to your inbox
Enter your email

“This is essentially the precautionary break that Sage suggested last year,” said the Sage source. “It would be sensible to have contingency plans, and if a lockdown is required, to time it so that it has minimal economic and societal impact.”

The Government scientist added that while Covid deaths are significantly higher than at the same point 12 months ago, they would have to rise fivefold to match those experienced in late October last year.

“We are going to be at a peak, albeit an extended peak, quite soon, so it’s not really the same situation as last year, when failure to reduce prevalence would have resulted in collapse of NHS and people dying in car parks,” he added.

“Hospitals might be overflowing before deaths reach the same level. Acting early will prevent this level.”


It is understood that the Government’s contingency plan for a “firebreak” lockdown could lead to an extension of the half-term, from one week for most schools to two weeks from late October into early November.

It is believed the closure of schools during the summer holidays has helped avoid a major rise in cases since the ending of restrictions since lockdown restrictions were lifted on July 19. Meanwhile, the return of schools in Scotland last month appears to have sparked a surge in infections.

Over the weekend, the Government confirmed it intended to push ahead with Covid passports for entry into mass events and nightclubs, with vaccines minister Nadhim Zahawi adding this was the “best way” to avoid having to re-impose coronavirus restrictions in the winter.

Boris Johnson is also believed to be prepared to re-introduce mask wearing and social distancing inside public spaces and on transport as early as this month in a move designed to stem hospital admissions and prevent the UK’s fourth lockdown.

If the Government fails to reduce the level of hospitalisations – which have consistently been above 900 a day over the past two weeks – the Prime Minister will consider whether or not a range of additional Covid restrictions are required. These could range from a return to social distancing and a limit on gatherings in homes and indoor public spaces to a full, but short term closing of the economy during which all but non-essential shops will be permitted to remain open.

Sometimes you have to look really, really hard to find bad news. In fact, if you can't find it, you virtually have to make it up.

Parsley thinks that the disease is getting worse among young people because a higher proportion of young people are going to hospital with it. Well, hospital admissions by age are not easy to come by, but deaths by age are, so let's check the seriousness of this disease in young people.

Positive coronavirus testing is about the same now as it was in January-February. So we would expect the death rate to be similar as well. (Positive testing now is actually about 70% of January, so I'll adjust the figures down by 70%.

In the first 12 weeks of January, there were 55,449 deaths, including 399 under 40 and a further 933 between 40 and 50. Knock that down by 70%, and we would expect the current wave (last 12 weeks, to 20th August, the last week published to date) 39,000 deaths, 280 under 40, 650 between 40 and 50.

What have we got? 3,292 total deaths, 117 under 40, 283 between 40 and 50. Wow. That is good news. That is stunningly good news. The vaccine has reduced deaths by 92% in the over 50's, by 70% in the 40s-50s, and by 58% in the under 40s. Allowing for different rates of vaccination, the vaccinated population are almost safe from dying of this disease. Yes, the youngsters are a bit behind in vaccination, but when they have caught up, they will not(by and large) die, even in the relatively small numbers that are dying now. (It may be pertinent at this point to note that the average number of under 44's who died specifically of flu in the years 2001-2008, the only specific flu-death study I can find, had an average of 952 under 45's dying of flu each year.)

So this is the news that Parsley can present. That the death rate of young people is way down on January, and that this is almost certainly because of the vaccine so will get better yet as vaccine coverage gets greater. But that would be good news, and doesn't fit his narrative - so he chooses to skew the facts. It's bleeding obvious that old peoples' prognosis will improve before young people's prognosis, because old people go tthe vaccine first. It isn't a news story, it's basic, obvious, self evident fact.

The problem is that there are government advisers who think like Parsley does, and the government hasn't got the wit to see what they're doing.

 

[e77]

I am sure, and would expect, there is a plan in place for lockdown in the eventuality of cases going through the roof and hospitals struggling. However it is extremely unlikely it will be implemented.

 

[carlzeiss]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v5VrpgXPm4

 

[crodonilson]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/07/no-10-not-ruling-out-firebreak-lockdown-if-covid-cases-rise

Several senior scientists in this article talking up a firebreak lockdown, expect that number to rise including Chris Whitty and Pat Vallance in coming weeks as cases soar.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/07/no-10-not-ruling-out-firebreak-lockdown-if-covid-cases-rise

Several senior scientists in this article talking up a firebreak lockdown, expect that number to rise including Chris Whitty and Pat Vallance in coming weeks as cases soar.

 

[dsr-burnley]

They will really struggle to persuade vaccinated people to lock down for the sake of people who aren't vaccinated.

If I came to you with a proposition that there were two ways that I could save myself from serious illness - one being to get vaccinated, the other being for you and everyone else to stop at home for a fortnight or three months, several times a year, for evermore - how many people will be willing to choose option two?

Another lockdown would do no good at all. It would only be observed by civil servants, whose jobs are safe whether they perform them or not, and by people with big houses and comfortable gardens. Most other people would ignore it.

 

[e77]

If cases rocket we might have rules about face coverings reinstated but I can't see it going past that. Another lockdown isn't going to happen.

 

[crodonilson]

If cases rocket we might have rules about face coverings reinstated but I can't see it going past that. Another lockdown isn't going to happen.

It's not a lockdown, it's a 'firebreak'.

 

[beorhthelm]

It's not a lockdown, it's a 'firebreak'.

what exactly do you suggest a "firebreak" would consist of? the article seem to suggest a two week lockdown.

 

[dsr-burnley]

It's not a lockdown, it's a 'firebreak'.

When I was a child, my parents tried to persuade me to eat french beans by calling them "green chips". I was bright enough then to recognise that changing the name doesn't change the product. I still am.

 

[Fat Boy Fat]

When I was a child, my parents tried to persuade me to eat french beans by calling them "green chips". I was bright enough then to recognise that changing the name doesn't change the product. I still am.

My mum pretended parsnips were roast potatoes, I now love parsnips!

 

[nicko31]

If cases rocket we might have rules about face coverings reinstated but I can't see it going past that. Another lockdown isn't going to happen.

Interesting the way almost every Tory MP in parliament refuses to wear a facemask in our cramped chamber. Shocking message to the public and you can see the complacency everywhere. They seem determined to try and turn the whole thing into a culture war than endangers public health

Facemasks will return but only when things become a crisis, give it 4-6 weeks. Rinse and repeat..

 

[carlzeiss]

https://theintercept.com/2021/09/06/new-details-emerge-about-coronavirus-research-at-chinese-lab/

More than 900 pages of materials related to US.-funded coronavirus research in China were released following a FOIA lawsuit by The Intercept.

Newly released documents provide details of U.S.-funded research on several types of coronaviruses at the Wuhan Institute of Virology in China. The Intercept has obtained more than 900 pages of documents detailing the work of EcoHealth Alliance, a U.S.-based health organization that used federal money to fund bat coronavirus research at the Chinese laboratory. The trove of documents includes two previously unpublished grant proposals that were funded by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, as well as project updates relating to EcoHealth Alliance’s research, which has been scrutinized amid increased interest in the origins of the pandemic.

The documents were released in connection with ongoing Freedom of Information Act litigation by The Intercept against the National Institutes of Health. The Intercept is making the full documents available to the public.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Interesting the way almost every Tory MP in parliament refuses to wear a facemask in our cramped chamber. Shocking message to the public and you can see the complacency everywhere. They seem determined to try and turn the whole thing into a culture war than endangers public health

Facemasks will return but only when things become a crisis, give it 4-6 weeks. Rinse and repeat..

Is this on top of the 4-6 weeks you mentioned when they went on the 19th?

 

[beorhthelm]

Interesting the way almost every Tory MP in parliament refuses to wear a facemask in our cramped chamber. Shocking message to the public and you can see the complacency everywhere. They seem determined to try and turn the whole thing into a culture war than endangers public health

Facemasks will return but only when things become a crisis, give it 4-6 weeks. Rinse and repeat..

funny you mention this, i wonder how many that wear masks in chamber wear them in the corridors and committee rooms. i've seen lack of masks in the select committees across the political board. i saw Angela Rayner not wearing one earlier, now wearing one in the high profile debate.