like a lamb to the slaughter

[beorhthelm]

...Its just that raising a lamb as a pet (and rightly or wrongly, most kids that age WOULD have considered that lamb as a pet, as they regularly fed it and stroked it),

lets go back a bit, where does it imply they have been "pets"? you are making that assumption and i see no grounds for it with the information to hand. if from day one they have been explained to them they are farm animals and how that differs from pets, wouldnt that negate your objection? might this not be the purpose?

 

[Brovion]

Oh dear.

I agree with Easy 10 but reading the post you quoted has given me an excellent idea for a compromise that will suit all parties - why don't they slaughter the members of PETA and put THEM in the pies? That way the kids'll learn that meat comes from dead animals and the world will lose a few wierdos. Everybody wins!

(The pies might be a bit dodgy but I suppose they could always sell them to football caterers. I shudder to think what I've eaten in some pies at football grounds).

 

[Easy 10]

lets go back a bit, where does it imply they have been "pets"? you are making that assumption and i see no grounds for it with the information to hand. if from day one they have been explained to them they are farm animals and how that differs from pets, wouldnt that negate your objection? might this not be the purpose?

So while they are feeding it and raising it, you'd be telling the children to switch off all emotional feelings they might have towards the lamb. That'd be a tough ask for a lot of adults, let alone a primary school child in that position. They're not robots.

Explain all you want about the foodchain to them, but doing it in this manner is (in my opinion) unnecessarily upsetting for them. I know my two would have been upset anyway. My 14 y-o won't even step on a spider, preferring to carefully release it in the garden. Doesn't mean he doesn't know where a pork chop comes from.

 

[DCgull]

Yes, but ...

... surely the main livestock breeds of sheep, cows, pigs, etc are only abundant because they are bred by humans to be killed for food.

So it's 'normal' already. You can't change that.

QUOTE]

Okay, fair point: my response was perhaps as clear as mud. What I meant was that it attempts to morally normalise the behaviour and thereby the question as to its legitimacy does not arise. What is, is right; a logical fallacy.
I can't fault the empirical claim you make earlier, but I would argue that they should become less abundant. Specifically, they should number 0.

 

[sten_super]

I'm fairly confident that we'll never come to an agreement on this. Another thing which I don't understand is why this is even an issue at all;

"A school lamb that was hand-reared for meat"
so that's always been the plan

"a pupil's mother objected"
ONE person objected?!

"The decision to send the Wether lamb for meat, which has the support of the school council and staff, the governing body and the majority of parents,"
"There is overwhelming support for the school, locally and further afield. "
"Last term, the school council - made up of 14 seven to 11-year-olds - voted 13 to one in favour of sending Marcus to slaughter rather than keeping him."
So the majority of those who it concerns (i.e. not PETA or the media) is happy with the arrangement

"The school now plans to buy pigs to use them to make sausages. "
That doesn't sound like a school trying to keep plans from parents

I don't understand why anyone is sticking their nose in a decision that has nothing to do with them? The parents are happy, the kids are happy, the staff are happy. Job done.

Just to add, in response to DCgull's point;
"The children have had a range of opportunities to discuss this issue, both in terms of the food cycle and the ethical aspect."
It doesn't look like the decision has been normalised; they have debated with the kids what is done and why.

 

[The Spanish]

it would not be a story, if it was Ardingly college and not a primary school.

 

[Easy 10]

Sten, all we've had is the schools side of this with lots of official statements from the headmaster for the news, and of course they'll paint it in a "hey, they all thought it was brilliant!" perspective. I'd expect nothing less.

But I can't help feeling that behind all the official, carefully prepared statements by the school for the media, there are some young children going home rather upset at having Marcus diced and sliced for their education. If it wasn't supposed to be a PET, then they wouldn't have NAMED it.

 

[looney]

Giving your food pet names is as dumb as vegetarianism.

Haven't come across a veggie yet that has explained what would happen to the millions of cats and dogs if meat eating is banned?

Raise livestock just for pets? mass culls?

Most veggies over the age of 24 are either Misanthropists or mentally ill in my experiance.

 

[sten_super]

Sten, all we've had is the schools side of this with lots of official statements from the headmaster for the news, and of course they'll paint it in a "hey, they all thought it was brilliant!" perspective. I'd expect nothing less.

But I can't help feeling that behind all the official, carefully prepared statements by the school for the media, there are some young children going home rather upset at having Marcus diced and sliced for their education. If it wasn't supposed to be a PET, then they wouldn't have NAMED it.

Fair enough Easy. As I said, I don't think we're going to agree on this. Even if there are a load of kids upset, is it still any of our business? If there is a problem, it is for the school and the local education authority to deal with. I completely disagree with any trial by media or the general public. It's not as if this is part of the national curriculum which we all have our children educated by, is it?

 

[DCgull]

I'm fairly confident that we'll never come to an agreement on this.

Agreed.
My main concern is that the one interested party whose interests are not being effectively represented are Marcus'. If they were, he wouldn't be killed just to provide a life lesson.

 

[DCgull]

Haven't come across a veggie yet that has explained what would happen to the millions of cats and dogs if meat eating is banned?

Obviously in a meat-free world there would be no cats. Dogs can survive on non-meat diets but probably best not to. In short, neutering until there are none left. Shirley you could have worked that out for yourself...?

Most veggies over the age of 24 are either Misanthropists or mentally ill in my experiance

Monsieur Pot meet Mr Kettle...

 

[looney]

Obviously in a meat-free world there would be no cats. Dogs can survive on non-meat diets but probably best not to. In short, neutering until there are none left. Shirley you could have worked that out for yourself...?



Monsieur Pot meet Mr Kettle...

Ah, so in the Lala land you inhabit the government will announce that meat eating is banned, all lifestock breading will be phased out after the last neutered woofer pops its clogs in about a decaded. 7 million moggies to be culled, taken from their owners, pensioners etc. Polyester cloths to be promoted as the way forward.

People growing fat on excess Carboydrate consumption and a booming rodent population.

ah lovley

 

[Easy 10]

Fair enough Easy. As I said, I don't think we're going to agree on this. Even if there are a load of kids upset, is it still any of our business? If there is a problem, it is for the school and the local education authority to deal with. I completely disagree with any trial by media or the general public. It's not as if this is part of the national curriculum which we all have our children educated by, is it?

Well, its just out there for debate, and we've all got an opinion on it. The likes of me and you chewing this over on a messageboard won't affect anything one way or the other anyways.

Refreshing lack of BINFEST on this thread though, isn't there ?

 

[sten_super]

Well, its just out there for debate, and we've all got an opinion on it. The likes of me and you chewing this over on a messageboard won't affect anything one way or the other anyways.

Refreshing lack of BINFEST on this thread though, isn't there ?

True, and let's face it, anything's better than doing WORK.

 

[Easy 10]

Amen to that.

 

[DCgull]

Ah, so in the Lala land you inhabit the government will announce that meat eating is banned, all lifestock breading will be phased out after the last neutered woofer pops its clogs in about a decaded. 7 million moggies to be culled, taken from their owners, pensioners etc. Polyester cloths to be promoted as the way forward.

People growing fat on excess Carboydrate consumption and a booming rodent population.

ah lovley

Surely if meat eating is banned, there will be no livestock breading. Besides, there'd be no egg to stick the crumbs to the livestock.

Seriously, though. Where did I say that this WOULD happen? You posed a question, I answered it which means that one veggie has explained what would happen to cats and dogs in a world I can't foresee.

Anyhow, I think this thread has gone as far as it can, so I will leave you with your stereotypes and say "ta ta".

 

[looney]

what steriotypes?

I asked you a question based on the consequences of a ban on meat eating, you didn't take long to prove my propositions though.

 

[sten_super]

DCgull, if you are still around, I've always been interested in the views of vegetarians who are, for want of a better word, 'preachy'. I know a few that simply do not eat meat (I'd assume for much the same reason you don't) but do not challenge the status quo, which you seem to want to do. If you don't mind, could you explain your reasons for wanting to do so? Is it an animal welfare argument?

My thoughts (for what little they are worth) is that its a fairly natural situation, for us to eat other animals. I'm not a great fan of the idea of battery farms, but I don't have a problem with an animal being killed for me to eat it; this is something that has happened for thousands of years, and has and continues to happen out in the wild, where animals high up in the food chain eat those lower down.

 

[NMH]

ALL schools should make it a part of their curriculum to visit farms or 'petting areas', then educate children in the cycle that these animals are put through to end up as steaks of meat, and on the plate.

As for this particular animal, the school now ought to retract the animal from slaughter, as (like has been said above) the children have bonded with the creature regardless of its' use to us as a species.

Sensibility should be wider in perspective, than to be channeled down one path of thought.

In my opinion.

 

[Easy 10]

"If God hadn't meant us to eat animals, then he wouldn't have made them out of meat".

H. Simpson.