Justice for the 96

[drew]

You need to see a shrink mate you are well confused.

Bradford was caused by a cigarette falling in a wooden stand. Justice for the 96 is just asking for an enquiry into the police/authority actions after 3.15pm

Marvellous, dismiss Bradford as just a discarded cigarette but keep banging on about how the Police were entirely to blame for Hillsborough.

Bradford was a result of an ancient stand, warnings about the build up of rubbish under a wooden stand being ignored, and exits at the back of the stand locked and no stewards to open them.

Perhaps you should read up a bit more about other major disasters instead of just banging on about Hillsborough. 96 fans at Hillsborough should have gone home that day but so should the 56 at Bradford and 39 at Heysel in 85, 66 at Ibrox in 71 and 33 at Burnden Park in 1946.

Hillsborough is seen as the exceptional one because it is Liverpool.

 

[The Large One]

Hillsborough is seen as the exceptional one because it is Liverpool.

Utter, utter horseshit.

It's exceptional because this was down to the authorities' ineptitude and incompetence.

The fact you still refuse to recognise this makes your revisionist perspective all the more tedious, insulting and pathetic.

 

[drew]

Utter, utter horseshit.

It's exceptional because this was down to the authorities' ineptitude and incompetence.

The fact you still refuse to recognise this makes your revisionist perspective all the more tedious, insulting and pathetic.

blah blah blah blah blah.


Nice to see you ignored the rest of my post.

 

[Chicken Runner61]

Marvellous, dismiss Bradford as just a discarded cigarette but keep banging on about how the Police were entirely to blame for Hillsborough.

Bradford was a result of an ancient stand, warnings about the build up of rubbish under a wooden stand being ignored, and exits at the back of the stand locked and no stewards to open them.

Perhaps you should read up a bit more about other major disasters instead of just banging on about Hillsborough. 96 fans at Hillsborough should have gone home that day but so should the 56 at Bradford and 39 at Heysel in 85, 66 at Ibrox in 71 and 33 at Burnden Park in 1946.

Hillsborough is seen as the exceptional one because it is Liverpool.

What are you on about I didn't dismiss the Bradford Fire and its the moron that started this thread that is trying to blame dead fans. Bradford lead to better stand safety and the enquiry that resulted from it was not covered up unlike Hillsborough.


GFY

 

[Acker79]

can you f***ing morons do some proper research before re-hashing sun lies.
Hillsborough,The Truth by Scraton tells it like it was,

Are you Scraton's agent or publisher, or scraton himself? You keep mentioning his book, trying to bump his sales?

This book is his writing, his view point after he looked at the evidence he felt was relevant, and asked the questions he wanted to ask in a way he wanted to ask them (possibly asking leading, or misleading questions).

Truth has many faces. Obi Wan was right. "So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view".

*Not saying he is wrong, or deliberately lying, just that you can't accept without question that a book calling itself 'the truth' is actually the truth of the subject.

 

[The Large One]

blah blah blah blah blah.


Nice to see you ignored the rest of my post.

The rest of your post had little value to the topic in question as they did not relate to the authorities' handling of a situation, save Heysel. So why should I address it?

The last sentence was just a plain out-and-out lie and it's evident that, when it comes to Hillsborough, you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[drew]

Are you Scraton's agent or publisher, or scraton himself? You keep mentioning his book, trying to bump his sales?

This book is his writing, his view point after he looked at the evidence he felt was relevant, and asked the questions he wanted to ask in a way he wanted to ask them (possibly asking leading, or misleading questions).

Truth has many faces. Obi Wan was right. "So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view".

*Not saying he is wrong, or deliberately lying, just that you can't accept without question that a book calling itself 'the truth' is actually the truth of the subject.

Actually, I think you can if it's about Liverpool by a Liverpudlian. It must be Gospel!!!!!!!!!

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

What a lousy thing to do, to use the Bradford fire as a stick to beat the Hillsborough memorial with. This attempt to play one disaster against another, to see who deserves most sympathy, is a petty game to play. Both were tragedies with their own causes, scale and national impact. Nothing is to be gained by creating competition between the two, other than it gives anti-Scousers some kind of weird pay-off.

 

[Chicken Runner61]

blah blah blah blah blah.


Nice to see you ignored the rest of my post.

What the bit about warnings about the build up of rubbish at Bradford?

Yes you are right it was bad - I think Hillsborough had a saftey certificate that was 10 years out of date that is equally bad.

 

[e77]

To repeat one of my previous posts and to quote the Taylor Report 'however, the police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inordinately large. This accords with two other sources of evidence' and 'Of those who arrived at 2.30 pm or after, very many had been drinking at public houses or had brought drink from home or an off-licence. I am satisfied on the evidence, however, that the great majority were not drunk nor even the worse for drink.' (see pages 42 and 43 of the report, available here).

This is a report produced by the Lord Chief Justice in a methodical method with the full weight of the law behind him as opposed to whatever South Yorkshire Police leaked to Kelvin McKenzie.

 

[Acker79]

A brief skimming of wikipedia provides me this info (or my reading of it) about the other disasters:

heysel - mostly italian fans injured. Caused by bad behaviour.
bradford - mostly accepted as a freak accident, what with a cigarette starting a fire. Mostly mundane repercussions; no more wooden stands in new stadia (current ones could stay, so no one had to do anything), clear up the rubbish.
ibrox - resulted in ibrox being redeveloped.
burden park - happened 52 years ago, led to a maximum capacity limit on attendance. Not an issue for most teams who wouldn't reach their maximum attendances.

Hillsborough - FA Cup semi final, back when the FA Cup meant something, s was a major match, that would have received a lot of attention. Because of this disaster other stadiums had to change; take down fences, become all seater, policing methods had to be revised etc.

Ian Ridley wrote about the impact Hillsborough had: The man who ensured we will never suffer another Hillsborough | Mail Online
calling it "It was a touchstone moment in the culture of English football."

I don't doubt the fact it involved two English teams played a part in it being a more, urm, notable(?) disaster, but the aftermath of it had a bigger impact on football than the other ones. That is the main reason it is so major a disaster.

 

[TWOCHOICEStom]

Hillsborough is seen as the exceptional one because it is Liverpool.

That is possibly the most stupid sentence I've ever read on this forum.

 

[GT49er]

Not once during this week of rememberance does anyone mention the thousands of pissed up scousers without tickets attempting to barge they way into the Leppings Lane end of the ground 10 minutes before kick-off.

...because even the police reports, and the many official cover-ups, have all admitted that the small number of fans without tickets wasn't a contributary factor.
F*ck off you S*n reading Tory sc*m.

 

[Questions]

Much as people bang on about bringing back terraces, i am happier with the way things are now. I know that the singers dont get together like the old standing days but seating is so much easier to keep things safe isn`t it ?

 

[Bwian]

Your prat.

The gates had to be opened as there was a crush developing outside. The ticketless mob who barged through the open gate headed to to already full middle two pens and caused the deaths of 96 people.

Blame?

You really are a totally ill-informed, odious, moronic twat. You haven't even bothered to read reliable information relating to Hillsborough yet try and act as though you know everything.

Please try and understand that reading The Sun does not make you an expert on what caused the deaths of 96 innocent football fans.

Maybe your razor sharp mind can find a way to blame the Liverpool fans for the 40 ambulances being kept outside while people were dying in the ground? Ambulances kept outside on police orders. While you're at it, explain to the rest of us your theory about thousands of ticketless fans-sorry, ticketless mob, barging through the gates when EVERY expert witness says that is NOT what happened.

As for the fans heading to the centre pens-they were being sent there by the police-remember those words-sent there by THE POLICE. The police were asked to open the gates to the side pens but chose to do nothing.

Now, please f*** off and keep your bile to yourself.

 

[WestStandLad]

You really are a totally ill-informed, odious, moronic twat. You haven't even bothered to read reliable information relating to Hillsborough yet try and act as though you know everything.

Please try and understand that reading The Sun does not make you an expert on what caused the deaths of 96 innocent football fans.

Maybe your razor sharp mind can find a way to blame the Liverpool fans for the 40 ambulances being kept outside while people were dying in the ground? Ambulances kept outside on police orders. While you're at it, explain to the rest of us your theory about thousands of ticketless fans-sorry, ticketless mob, barging through the gates when EVERY expert witness says that is NOT what happened.

As for the fans heading to the centre pens-they were being sent there by the police-remember those words-sent there by THE POLICE. The police were asked to open the gates to the side pens but chose to do nothing.

Now, please f*** off and keep your bile to yourself.

Like I've said previously Bwian. Ignorance is not acceptable when so many lost their lives.

Justice For The 96. Don't Buy The S*n.

SPURS 1981 - Hillsborough

http://pseudscorner.blogspot.com/2009/04/earlier-hillsborough-disaster-margin.html

Every few years in April a new headline anniversary reminds us of one of the greatest disasters of English football. This year it is 20 years since The Hillsborough tragedy in which Liverpool fans were crushed to death watching their team play an FA Cup semi-final.

English football still feels bitter about the sorrow of that day. And we all know why that is. The police screwed up; and with the help of the newspapers they blamed us. We football fans were accused of unspeakable horrors that I simply refuse to repeat. And plenty of normal human beings in this country believed it. Then when the truth became apparent the police who screwed up got off scot free for their criminal incompetence, largely thanks to the argument that it was an unprecedented situation.

But that argument was another lie.

I know it was a lie. I know far too many Spurs fans to think otherwise. It was a lie because in 1981 Spurs played Wolves in an FA Cup Semi Final at Hillsborough, and Spurs fans, like Liverpool fans eight years later, were allocated the now notorious Leppings Lane end.

Spurs fans, like Liverpool fans that went after them, felt that the ends were badly allocated. Leppings Lane was perceived to be the smaller end and should thus have been given to the team with the smaller travelling support. But this was probably just perception, and switching ends would sadly just have switched the suffering from one bunch of fans to another.

Spurs fans were sent through the concourses that led to the various pens behind the goal. And those directly behind the goal were the most popular. So just as pens 3 and 4 filled to dangerous levels in 1989, the same part of the ground filled dangerously quickly in 1981.

People were crushed not because of surging support or bad behaviour, but simply because the spaces between the large metal fences were too small. Indeed there was a feeling even before then, without benefit of hindsight, that the supposed capacity of Leppings Lane was overstated and unsafe.

Panic ensued and Spurs fans faced the prospect of a pain that Liverpool fans eventually had to suffer. Those at the front were bruised and battered well before kick-off and realised quickly they simply could not escape as things got worse. Some still speak of the crowd being packed so tight that their feet were off the ground as they moved.

But in 2011 there will be no Match of the Day special, and no retrospective interviews to mark thirty years since that semi-final. There will no documentaries made or reefs laid on Bill Nicholson Way at the gates to White Hart Lane.

And the reason for that is simple.

Unlike their counterparts in 1989 the police commanders in charge in 1981 were not in charge of their first match, were not ignorant and incompetent, and were seemingly not predisposed to assume all problems were the result of violent scum on the terraces who deserved everything they got.

Instead those in charge acted sensibly on the feedback of officers on the frontline. As a result they ordered the closure of the gates leading to the most crowded pens, and then directed incoming fans to safer areas. They acted somewhat late, but they did act. And many fans were helped out of the crowded spaces by fellow fans and police alike. They then sat along the edge of the pitch to watch the game unfold.

As a result of sensible policing more and more unaware fans could no longer pour into pens where they would innocently crush to death those at the front. My fellow Yids thus gradually adjusted to their tight space, regained composure, and despite a fair few injuries stayed alive to see Ossie and Ricky win at Wembley a month later.

The experience led fans to do something that few ever did back before the days when the internet made complaining so easy. They wrote letters to the authorities to express their severe concerns and to seek answers. And while they never heard back, the FA did take action.

It would of course be understandable that those in charge of football thought very little had happened that day. In fact very little did happen thanks to good policing that negated a need for countless funerals. But even so, Hillsborough was barred as a venue for major neutral matches and only allowed to do so again in 1987 after modifications were made to the pens. Those modifications were designed to make policing easier.

Which leads back to that bitterness.

For Spurs fans the defence of the commanders after 1989 that it was an unprecedented situation they couldn’t possible have seen coming was simply a lie. Fans had been through the precedent. They had been saved from the exact same tragedy by good policing. And the FA ordered the ground changed to make good policing easier in future. So to hear bad police pretend that good police would have done no better was sickening.

Of course very little of what I’ve just written will surprise Liverpool fans. And what really spurred me to write this was not really that people out there won’t know about a semi-final in 1981 that matters little in the grand scheme of football history. What bothers me is that it has just occurred after all this time that I have no idea whether this was a similarly isolated case.

I realise now, and am suddenly frightened by this. I have no idea how exceptional or commonplace the events of both days were. Were we all regularly just a bad police chief away from death for all those years? Or were Spurs fans incredibly lucky that of the two times it really mattered our coin toss landed heads, while Liverpool’s sadly fell to tails?

 

[raymondbriggs]

if you put a traffic cop in charge of policing at his first ever football match, make it a reserve fixture between 2 county league sides not an F.A. cup semi final.
knowing how to put cones out on a motorway is no training for supervising officers involved in managing the dynamics of a football crowd.

 

[Bry Nylon]

...many could have been saved by basic first aid...

Hillsborough is quite often used as a Case Study for Major Civil Disaster training. One of the saddest facts is that those well intentioned supporters who carried injured fans away on advertising hoardings and then left them in the centre circle unwittingly suffocated those they intended to rescue. The wind pipe is like a garden hose, and if the head is tiltled back unsupported it will develop a 'kink' at the Adam's Apple, and the casualty will die of asphyxia. Had they been lifted to the pitch, had their heads / necks supported and been given immediate CPR, it is believed many would / could have survived.

 

[herecomesaregular]

Hillsborough is quite often used as a Case Study for Major Civil Disaster training. One of the saddest facts is that those well intentioned supporters who carried injured fans away on advertising hoardings and then left them in the centre circle unwittingly suffocated those they intended to rescue. The wind pipe is like a garden hose, and if the head is tiltled back unsupported it will develop a 'kink' at the Adam's Apple, and the casualty will die of asphyxia. Had they been lifted to the pitch, had their heads / necks supported and been given immediate CPR, it is believed many would / could have survived.

i'm not sure that's true? - my recent (basic) first aid training from a paramedic advised that before cpr a casualty's head should be tilted back as this prevents them swallowing their tongue?