How LARGE will Cameron's failure be ?

[Barrel of Fun]

Don't want to sound like a snob, but 26 four kids no husband, moaning about child care costs, and a platform to do it on breakfast TV, is that what this country has come to?

One would have thought that society would have evolved enough to stop having children if you can not or can barely afford them. Infant mortality rates now means that you don't need twelve babies in the hope that a few will reach adulthood. Some people are just selfish, particularly when it comes to collecting babies and expecting the state to pick up the bill when the persons have, perhaps, contributed very little to society.

 

[Buzzer]

Assuming that 99% of parents of kids in the private education sector actually care about their kids education, and this percentage is lower in the state education, then how can those kids parachuted in from the private sector have anything but a positive effect? Afterall, there's none of this private sector bollocks in France, Germany, Netherlands or the Scnadinavian countries. Or at least, it's an utterly insignificant number.

Because your assumptions are based on flawed thinking. In my travels I've met a lot of privately educated people whose parents were no more motivated than those who sent their kids to state schools. Quite where you get your 99% from, God only knows.

And as I said in a later post, rich parents are not going to send their kids to schools that are underachieving. They'll do what Tony Blair and Harriet Harman and Tony Benn did, they'll send them to the very best state schools.

By the way, there's plenty of this private school bollocks in France, Germany, Nertherlands and the Scandinavian countries.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

One would have thought that society would have evolved enough to stop having children if you can not or can barely afford them. Infant mortality rates now means that you don't need twelve babies in the hope that a few will reach adulthood. Some people are just selfish, particularly when it comes to collecting babies and expecting the state to pick up the bill when the persons have, perhaps, contributed very little to society.

and yet I was accused yesterday being being selfish and not giving a shit about society even though I have worked and paid into the tax system for over 30 years without a single dole payment made, have no children and have never claimed a penny in child benefits and all the other related benefits, supported myself and never claimed income support and have luckily not been a burden on the nhs yet.

How does this work

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Tories are evil, Uncle. Tories are evil.

 

[Chicken Run]

Tories will be the biggest party, but 5 to 10 short of an overall majority. It's time for the LibDems to step up to the plate.

Probably agree with the above but do look at the link pmqs wednesday 17 mins 50 secs to 18 mins 30 secs and tell me what you think?

BBC - BBC Parliament Programmes - Prime Ministers Questions

 

[auschr]

The fourth estate is not interested in letting anyone but Labour or Tories in power. Despite the reoccurring amount of reasons to completely distrust the lot of them, the masses will continue to keep them in power, like an battered wife crawling back to their abusive husband because she loves him.

 

[Gwylan]

Mrs Hart quite rightly pointed out that is was her decsion to have 4 kids at a relatively young age, and why didn't Kate form GMTV ask if the father/fathers of the four kids did their 'bit' chipping in?

Some people are just selfish, particularly when it comes to collecting babies and expecting the state to pick up the bill when the persons have, perhaps, contributed very little to society.

Sorry, this is a complete myth. The idea that there are thousands of women out there choosing to have children and excluding their fathers from their lives is total nonsense.

Yes, it does happen but not as often as the Daily Mail thinks. The vast majority of single mothers are single because a relationship has broken down. Most of these women would love to work but find it hard because the cost of childcare eats into low wages.

The mother of my daughter's best friend is a single mother. Her partner walked out on her when she was pregnant with their third child. She doesn't know where he is and he's never contributed a penny to the cost of their children. The mother had no intention of single mother - she thought she was in a permanent relationship - and finds life very tough.

For the life of me I can't see why Harty and Barrel of Fun think that it's her fault that she struggles a bit with her kids. There are several single mothers at my kids' school and all the ones that I know about didn't set out to be single but ended up that way. But single mothers are in easy target to demonise, so let's pick on them.

 

[Simster]

You'd move near a good school ? So i take it you're against the lottery style allocation system now in operation in brighton and hove ?

Yep, damn right. I think it's a f***ing shambles to be honest.

Because your assumptions are based on flawed thinking. In my travels I've met a lot of privately educated people whose parents were no more motivated than those who sent their kids to state schools. Quite where you get your 99% from, God only knows.

You may be right about my numbers, but I still think you'd see state schools improve if the kids in private school were pushd that way. Of course, only in schools where you haven't reached that "critical mass" of disruptive influence.

And as I said in a later post, rich parents are not going to send their kids to schools that are underachieving. They'll do what Tony Blair and Harriet Harman and Tony Benn did, they'll send them to the very best state schools.

Yep, and I don't have a problem with this.

By the way, there's plenty of this private school bollocks in France, Germany, Nertherlands and the Scandinavian countries.

Hmmm. Only in France is there a significant private sector, and that's mostly down to religion because France is a secular state. Therefore if you want your kid to have a religious upbringing, you have to pay for it, but even then it is massively subsidised by the state.

In Germany, private education is *very* marginal. Nothing like the 9% (and rising) that it is here.

 

[Chicken Run]

Sorry, this is a complete myth. The idea that there are thousands of women out there choosing to have children and excluding their fathers from their lives is total nonsense.

Yes, it does happen but not as often as the Daily Mail thinks. The vast majority of single mothers are single because a relationship has broken down. Most of these women would love to work but find it hard because the cost of childcare eats into low wages.

The mother of my daughter's best friend is a single mother. Her partner walked out on her when she was pregnant with their third child. She doesn't know where he is and he's never contributed a penny to the cost of their children. The mother had no intention of single mother - she thought she was in a permanent relationship - and finds life very tough.

For the life of me I can't see why Harty and Barrel of Fun think that it's her fault that she struggles a bit with her kids. There are several single mothers at my kids' school and all the ones that I know about didn't set out to be single but ended up that way. But single mothers are in easy target to demonise, so let's pick on them.

For every genuine single mother who struggles to cope with day to finances and work i'm afraid there are many more children breeders and they are the ones the BOF and Harty are on about, I liken it to the amount of people now who bread dogs, it's not a real interest to them it's a cash thing.

 

[Simster]

Probably agree with the above but do look at the link pmqs wednesday 17 mins 50 secs to 18 mins 30 secs and tell me what you think?

BBC - BBC Parliament Programmes - Prime Ministers Questions

I like Nick Clegg. A much better, credible stateman than either Brown or Cameron. Too bad he hasn't got a hope.

 

[Buzzer]

For every genuine single mother who struggles to cope with day to finances and work i'm afraid there are many more children breeders and they are the ones the BOF and Harty are on about, I liken it to the amount of people now who bread dogs, it's not a real interest to them it's a cash thing.

I disagree with you and agree with Gwylan.


...and that's me outta this and every other election thread!

 

[Simster]

For every genuine single mother who struggles to cope with day to finances and work i'm afraid there are many more children breeders and they are the ones the BOF and Harty are on about

Wow, that's fairly definitive. I guess you won't be able to provide a link to back up this assertion though?

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Tory majority of 6.

 

[Chicken Run]

I like Nick Clegg. A much better, credible stateman than either Brown or Cameron. Too bad he hasn't got a hope.

For the record I do too.

 

[Chicken Run]

Wow, that's fairly definitive. I guess you won't be able to provide a link to back up this assertion though?

Jeremy Kyle - ITV Lifestyle

 

[Husty]

Assuming that 99% of parents of kids in the private education sector actually care about their kids education, and this percentage is lower in the state education, then how can those kids parachuted in from the private sector have anything but a positive effect? Afterall, there's none of this private sector bollocks in France, Germany, Netherlands or the Scnadinavian countries. Or at least, it's an utterly insignificant number.

That's a massive and rather stupid assumption to make, I can assure you that at Hurst College, the number of parents who take a genuine interest in their childs education in the way your suggesting is a number much smaller than 99%. Judging by how few turn up to things like parents evenings, I think it would be closer to the truth to say that 99% send there kids there so they dont have to take any further interest.

 

[Simster]

Jeremy Kyle - ITV Lifestyle

How does posting a link to a crap daytime TV show go to prove that there are more bottom dwelling "children breeders" than genuine single mothers who struggle to cope with day to finances and work?

You're going to have to do a lot better than that.

 

[Simster]

That's a massive and rather stupid assumption to make, I can assure you that at Hurst College, the number of parents who take a genuine interest in their childs education in the way your suggesting is a number much smaller than 99%. Judging by how few turn up to things like parents evenings, I think it would be closer to the truth to say that 99% send there kids there so they dont have to take any further interest.

Yes, I conceded that point in post #108.

 

[The Large One]

That is absolutely totally rubbish. Sorry, but it is. The vast majority of income for these private schools are fees. The parents paying these fees are paying on taxed income. Their money after the government has taken its share. There is no subsidy by "ordinary" taxpayers at that point. And at that point the parents are the ones subsidising the ordinary taxpayer by opting out of a state school system yet still having to pay for it through taxes.

Investment (non-fee or donation) income is taxed as per normal businesses so all that leaves us with is whether or not to tax the "profit" these schools generate. You say that CGT and corp tax is lost to the government but if these schools did not exist (as you wish them to) then there would be no tax collected anyway and there would be a net cost to ordinary taxpayers now having to pay for Camilla and Henry to be educated within a state system.

I take on board the greater philosophical/political debate about private education and whether they should have charitable status or not but would point out that by killing private education in the UK will inevitably reduce the cash available per child in state education because of the rise in the number of children being educated in state schools. Also, as has been pointed out here, charitable status is not just a matter of convenience. There's very strict rules about how money can be spent, how it is to be collected and at all times has to be ultra vires. I know how stringently these rules are enforced as I have been in the past a senior accountant at one of the UK's largest charities. Schools can't just take charitable status as a badge of convenience then do what they like.

By all means, argue that private schools should be scrapped but at least stick to political dogma rather than cite spurious economic benefits.


p.s. love your comment about motivated and pro-education parents starting a virtuous circle. Do you know how patronising that sounds?

Almost. If a school offers places for 3-4 year-olds, there is a government subsidy that goes straight to the school from the LEA, while that child is 3 or 4, equivalent to 3 hours per child per day.

But other than that, I agree with this.

 

[Gwylan]

For every genuine single mother who struggles to cope with day to finances and work i'm afraid there are many more children breeders

According to the British Social Attitudes survey, 57 percent of single mothers have never lived with the fathers of their children. That looks to support your statement but that doesn't take into account how many fathers buggered off when they discovered that the woman was pregnant.

Nor does it take into account working single mothers - I personally know three single mothers who have never lived with fathers, yet who work to support their children.

And, of course, the fact that parents don't live together, doesn't necessarily mean that the father's not involved - there will be some mothers who want to live as a single parent but are keen to involve the father too.