Hooligans

[Albion Rob]

Maybe if Panorama decided to do some investigative reporting rather than running round looking for trouble and hooking up with low wattage kids from the north.

Maybe we should look at why we need to sing songs about the war - and do other countries. Ostensibly, it was a great victiry, I'm sure plenty of countries have songd about their great military efforts.

But that aside, why do we all feel the need to drink to excess and fall over. We all do it, many of us most Friday or Saturday nights. Is life in this country really so bad that we have to drink excessively to blot it out? Do we need to show the rest of Europe we're not scared of them? Are we really the roughest, toughest and baddest?

It struck me that the trouble in Germany was more opportunistic than planned and many on here have alluded to Chav culture anmd how it shames us all.

However, I'm proud to live in a country where gay marches are fine, where racism, while it still exists, is relatively rare and frowned upon by most. Where you can have a different point of political view and talk about it rather than get locked up or killed.

Clearly the kids out there don't feel part of that, we need to examine why that is rather than run around with TV cameras glorifying their exploits.

 

[Wondergull]

I missed the programme last night but taped it to watch tonight. A mate text me last night to tell me that you can see me being arrested in Stuttgart. Apparently, he was also shown being arrested and the commentary calls him a ring leader? How they manage to come up with that when he was arrested for taking photos of the over top policing is beyond me. And he had a German bandana on that he had swapped with a German fan so he wasnt exactly dressed for the part of a hoolie ringleader. Thankfully we can still laugh about our appalling treatment in Stuttgart!!

 

[Billy the Fish]

I missed the programme last night but taped it to watch tonight. A mate text me last night to tell me that you can see me being arrested in Stuttgart. Apparently, he was also shown being arrested and the commentary calls him a ring leader? How they manage to come up with that when he was arrested for taking photos of the over top policing is beyond me. And he had a German bandana on that he had swapped with a German fan so he wasnt exactly dressed for the part of a hoolie ringleader. Thankfully we can still laugh about our appalling treatment in Stuttgart!!

Were you talking to some lads from Huddersfield by any chance?

 

[Sid James]

Surely the best way forward is to report the good things that happened, the behaviour, the PR stunts carried out with local groups by London Englandfans etc. Rather than trawling out the same old rubbish as it gets good viewing figures and allows people that have never been abroad with national team to suddenly become experts on matters that were very minor.

That good work was reported but it was as a bit of an aside I'll grant you.

Undoubtedly the programme had an agenda and that certainly wasn't as a good news story, but that doesn't change the simple fact that when someone decides to make a negative programme about English football they don't have to work to hard to do it do they ?

 

[Pavilionaire]

I don't have a problem with the "Hooligans" programme title - in my book if you go abroad to cause trouble then you're a hooligan.

The programme highlighted just how many f***ing wankers there are purporting to be England fans. What is it about England? The Danes and Dutch travel in huge numbers and match us in ability to drink, but you don't get this drunken, yobbish behaviour from them.

This thuggish, loutish behaviour is both inexcusable and boring. I'm all in favour of more British policemen and more preventative arrests, though he fact we need our police over there in the first place tells its own story.

 

[Trufflehound]

The Danes and Dutch travel in huge numbers and match us in ability to drink, but you don't get this drunken, yobbish behaviour from them.

Can't speak for the Danes, but most of the Dutch hooligans express their xenophobia by never leaving Holland. The Ajax/FC Groningen/FC Utrecht/Feyenoord fans (i.e the ones who generally have the worst reputations) are usually happy just to beat each other up in pre-arranged mass brawls.

 

[Wondergull]

Were you talking to some lads from Huddersfield by any chance?

No, there was 8 of us with 6 Germans we met during the Germany V Sweden game

 

[Blackadder]

I didn't witness any hooliganism in Cologne (apart from a sing song between English and German fans being broken up by some para-police, who decided to charge the Germans). I did see a lot of lads tanked up though.

Apart from the girls being abused last night, I was particularly annoyed with the Burberry Boy (had a go at the Cameraman) who thought it was great/hard to nick Brazillian flags.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Can't speak for the Danes, but most of the Dutch hooligans express their xenophobia by never leaving Holland. The Ajax/FC Groningen/FC Utrecht/Feyenoord fans (i.e the ones who generally have the worst reputations) are usually happy just to beat each other up in pre-arranged mass brawls.

Well if Dutch hooligans don't travel abroad what's the problem?

The many thousands that do are not hooligans and are well-behaved. The Croatians and Czechs also consume large quantities but, again, no trouble.

The authorities cannot rest on their laurels, we need to have zero tolerance to this anti-social behaviour abroad.

 

[Billy the Fish]

I don't have a problem with the "Hooligans" programme title - in my book if you go abroad to cause trouble then you're a hooligan.

So why don't panorama go to tenerife or any of the greek party resorts and do a program about english behaviour out there, it would be exactly the same. Because that wouldn't get the viewing figures up. The problem is down to a combination of our drinking culture and group mentality.

 

[Uncle Buck]

The authorities cannot rest on their laurels, we need to have zero tolerance to this anti-social behaviour abroad.

I do not think they are resting on their laurels. The police are already talking to the forces of the countries that we play in the qualifiers about having British police in uniform at the away games as this was a success in Germany. They have said anyone arrested for disorder in Germany will be taken through the British Courts and banning orders will be issued where relevant.

However the various groups do deserve credit for improving things no end. That is now 3 tournaments in a row that England have been in and no serious disorder at any.

 

[Man of Harveys]

So why don't panorama go to tenerife or any of the greek party resorts and do a program about english behaviour out there, it would be exactly the same. Because that wouldn't get the viewing figures up. The problem is down to a combination of our drinking culture and group mentality.

If you're sad enough flick over onto ITV, Club Reps is always showing exactly that. But there it's dressed up as a big party.

IMHO, I think it's also partly to do with tabloid-fuelled xenophobia - it's seemingly easier or more acceptable at least in many Brits' minds to smash a place up if it's only "the Germans" or "the French" who'll end up paying for it.

As for "drinking culture", what a load of crap that is - as the chart below shows, a load more countries drink more per capita than the Brits do but they don't behave as boorishly - the thousands of Czechs I saw in Cologne were positively subdued even before Ghana beat them. Besides, booze doesn't turn people bad, it's makes people with a pre-disposition to behaving badly anyway lose their inhibitions about doing so.

http://www.heartstats.org/temp/ESspTabsp7.1spweb05.xls

 

[The Wookiee]

The Croatians and Czechs also consume large quantities but, again, no trouble.

Was there not a pitch invasion by the Croatians in one of their games?

Also there was some disorder in and around the stadium with the police when the Czechs played Italy

 

[Mr Blobby]

<<

Sorry to get on my high horse and be all santimonious but I don't see the fact that we didn't trash Germany's cities as a resounding success.>>

Why not? It is a big improvement on 1988 when England fans did trash cities in Germany

<<I'm not for one second ignoring the fact that MASSIVE improvements have been made with regard to England fan's travelling abroad but to trawl out the same old platitudes about isolated incidents and sensationalist reporting just doesn't wash.>>

FFS - because its F***ing true! How many times have you been abroad to watch England to make f***ing stupid comments like that.

<<And the suggestion that all other nations are the same is just laughable.>>

How do you know that? Germans fans are just as bad, so how come 9,000 got arrested only 810 where English? Also look at domestic violence in Italy, Poland, Hollandmuch much worse than in England.

<<What we saw last night was not staged or provoked and it does happen all the time on our own streets. It probably did take hours of filming to get what we saw last night but I can't believe that anyone would watch it and not feel regret that it happened.>>

Yes but where was the hours of footage of us having a good time with Germans, Ecudorians, Swedish, T&T etc etc. Us going to see the sites, having a laugh, having fun, but yes drinking and possibly occasionally swearing. My word I must be a thug and an embaressment to so many people.

Anyway why not make a programme about the 3 lads just arrested and banged up in Greece for being druk and running about knacked and call that Englands shame??

I have followed England away since 1990, been to about 30 different countries and it has got better, it is an isoated minority and it is a great craic follwoing England abroad. More people should try it, see what its really like, then they will be getting annoyed when wan*ers who have NEVER been comment on it like experts!

Mr Blobby
Brighton and England and proud to follow both

 

[Billy the Fish]

If you're sad enough flick over onto ITV, Club Reps is always showing exactly that. But there it's dressed up as a big party.

As for "drinking culture", what a load of crap that is - as the chart below shows, a load more countries drink more per capita than the Brits do but they don't behave as boorishly - the thousands of Czechs I saw in Cologne were positively subdued even before Ghana beat them. Besides, booze doesn't turn people bad, it's makes people with a pre-disposition to behaving badly anyway lose their inhibitions about doing so.

I was going to mention the club reps and all of the ibiza/greece uncovered programs. The behaviour is largely the same, in fact alot of the time you see the reps encourageing people to copy football fan type behaviour, by singing football songs. The difference is in the way it is reported, the holiday shows all glorify what goes on.
The point I was making about drinking culture was that although other countries like a drink as much as the rest of us, they all do it in different ways. Our way seems to be drink as much as you can, as quickly as you can. With regards to the bad behaviour, I think that this is where group mentality comes into it. You will find that in a large group people are looking to show off to the others by pushing the boundries of what is acceptable. There is also the feeling of being protected by the group, so people will feel that they are more likely to get away with bad behaviour.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Was there not a pitch invasion by the Croatians in one of their games?

Also there was some disorder in and around the stadium with the police when the Czechs played Italy

You tell me. I don't remember that.

The difference between louts kicking off in Tenerife and kicking off at the World Cup is that the eyes of the world are not watching the situation in Tenerife, the England team and its fans are not penalised if louts kick off whilst on holiday but they could be if it happens in a mjor tournament.

Personally, I don't think the trouble has got anything to do with drinking culture or group mentality, it's because England has some of the most stupid, pig ignorant people in Europe following our side.

 

[Trufflehound]

Our way seems to be drink as much as you can, as quickly as you can.

What also hasn't helped is that generations of British people have had it bred into them that you have to chuck it down your throat as quickly as possible because closing time is always looming.

Even though that restriction has now gone, it'll probably take another generation before that peculiar mentality subsides.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Billy The Fish, your argument doesn't stack up.

I've seen 25,000 Danes roll into Toulouse, drink solidly and quickly "en masse" in the sun before going off to watch their side.

Unfortunately for them they only drew 2-2 with South Africa, so it didn't help their chances of qualification. Did I see any loutish behaviour or vented anger that night? Did I f***.

And the reason? They don't have a contingent of neanderthals.

 

[Billy the Fish]

And the reason? They don't have a contingent of neanderthals.

Which is sort of what I'm trying to get at. The bad behaviour is part of the culture as far as i'm concerned, it's not necessarily the drink that causes it but the two definately go hand in hand.

As a side note it was proved in germany that we consumed more litres per person than any other country.

 

[Lokki 7]

Billy The Fish, your argument doesn't stack up.

I've seen 25,000 Danes roll into Toulouse, drink solidly and quickly "en masse" in the sun before going off to watch their side.

Unfortunately for them they only drew 2-2 with South Africa, so it didn't help their chances of qualification. Did I see any loutish behaviour or vented anger that night? Did I f***.

And the reason? They don't have a contingent of neanderthals.

I saw the same thing happen with England against Sweden, also 2-2. Although there were probably more like 60,000 England that night. What's your point? Does every England supporter have to be angel like at every game ever to make you happy?