Here we go mongering war agin

[Herr Tubthumper]

In principle I actually support this, the primary difference between Libya and Iraq is UN support. But, surely our armed forces are stretched enough as it is? We're also laying off soldiers, decommissioning aircraft and other weapons and as a nation we're broke. Can't Hague us his influence to get someone else to lead this?

 

[Superphil]

Correct me if I am wrong, we are not talking about "invading Libya, or going to war with them" we are talking about sharing responsibilty with the other nations involved in protecting the airspace so that they cant fly there planes to bomb civilians........This could all blow over in a matter of days........

But then again, he is a plumb that bloke in charge and if he shots at one of the planes then it could all kick off......

I think it is more serious than that. I believe it means bombing all the millitary airbases, making the runways unuseable, and destoying all the aircraft and equipment. It means shooting down all millitary aircraft that may fly over Lybia during the 'no fly' period (that assumes we can do that, without getting shot down ourselves). It means that our intervention will cause the deaths of many people, be they millitary personel on the bases, or civilians caught up in the fire fight.

If 'we' do this, then 'we' become yet again targets for the resulting misguided terrorism campaign. Don't do it Hague, we can't afford it on a number of levels. Let someone else take the flack (not a pun)

 

[daveinprague]

This worry for the civilians wasnt really that apparent when we bombed the feck out of Iraq, killing an estimated 1/4 million civilians during our involvment in that feck up of a war... American drones have killed hundreds of civilians in Afghanistan/Pakistan... one killed 40 civilians just the other day in Pakistan.

 

[Napper]

This comical government are messing things up left right and centre so why not add a war to the list of failures.

I agree we should get involved but after dippy Cameron cut back the MOD we should certainly be re-assesing.

Like I say , this lot are doomed to failure so whatever they chose will be another nail in their leadership coffin

Bet everyone that backed them is so so pleased they did now !

Oh for hindsight

 

[chucky1973]

This worry for the civilians wasnt really that apparent when we bombed the feck out of Iraq, killing an estimated 1/4 million civilians during our involvment in that feck up of a war... American drones have killed hundreds of civilians in Afghanistan/Pakistan... one killed 40 civilians just the other day in Pakistan.

Im Not disagreeing with your comment Dave, but there is no actual proof for what you say, its normally the "Taliban or the PAkistani Gov" that quote those numbers and I am sure that half of those killed were in fact doing wrong, by that I say attacking or planning attacks on our forces.........there are instances where there is sadly loss of life in these attacks but not as much as is reported....

 

[dingodan]

This worry for the civilians wasnt really that apparent when we bombed the feck out of Iraq, killing an estimated 1/4 million civilians during our involvment in that feck up of a war... American drones have killed hundreds of civilians in Afghanistan/Pakistan... one killed 40 civilians just the other day in Pakistan.

Amen brother.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

For clarity:

UK Arms Exports to Libya:

Ammunition and Fuses: 3,088 Euros
Tear gas/Chem weapons: 455,705 Euros
Electronic Equip: 26,163,548 Euros
Military Planes: 2,118,152 Euros
Small Arms: 283,942 Euros

All very small change items from a combat perspective.

 

[fork me]

Let Italy sort it out then. Sure that'd scare Gadaffi

Problem is they'd just change sides as soon as they started losing.

What's the difference between a bunch of Italians and a loaf of bread?

You can make soldiers our of a loaf of bread.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Im Not disagreeing with your comment Dave, but there is no actual proof for what you say, its normally the "Taliban or the PAkistani Gov" that quote those numbers and I am sure that half of those killed were in fact doing wrong, by that I say attacking or planning attacks on our forces.........there are instances where there is sadly loss of life in these attacks but not as much as is reported....

This is where it's at.

Propoganda comes from both sides of the argument.

 

[daveinprague]

yeah my point is...if Ghaddafi kills civilians when attacking rebels, who...last week, everybody thought would walk this rebellion... its wrong.. ...when we kill civilians when attacking Al Qaeda/Taliban...its not so bad...

A Pakistani General (Pakistani Govt and military is on our side) today has spoken out against these drone attacks as they cause more damage than good, but It wont stop any time soon.
BBC News - Pakistan army chief Kayani in US drone outburst

 

[colinz]

Isn't it blindingly obvious?

Those they took out in Iraq originally had murded thousands of Kurds.

The "insurgents" in Libya had protested for political reform.

Kind of a difference there.

Thats an interesting moral view point, because Saddam Hussein is responsible for the deaths of thousands of Kurds, that gives the west the right to bomb the crap out of the place & pinch their oil.

 

[dingodan]

All very small change items from a combat perspective.

im sure those on the hard end of this equipment will totally agree with you.

Go and live in a country being bombed by the west for afew days. You'll soon get it as you run for cover not sure where the next bomb is going to land.

I think watching war on TV from the comfort of our sofas has totally disconnected people from the true reality of what military conflict really is.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Thats an interesting moral view point, because Saddam Hussein is responsible for the deaths of thousands of Kurds, that gives the west the right to bomb the crap out of the place & pinch their oil.

Nobody is pinching their oil.

They have their own government running their own industries.

The moment Suaddam invaded Kuwait he set the wheels in motion for this action.

Maybe you've forgotten that when Desert Storm commenced it was Kurdish forces who struck the first blow in the war to the north?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

im sure those on the hard end of this equipment will totally agree with you.

Go and live in a country being bombed by the west for afew days. You'll soon get it as you run for cover not sure where the next bomb is going to land.

I think watching war on TV from the comfort of our sofas has totally disconnected people from the true reality of what military conflict really is.

How do you know the $3000 worth of ammunition wasn't blanks for training or for local police?

Do you know that the $2 million for a plane wasnt an old transport plane? You wont get much of a plane for 2 million.

Small arms could once again be for a police force under resourced.

You're assumptions are all based on everything going straight to the military and not into other sectors.

 

[colinz]

Yeah & pigs can fly ! Haliburton have gone in their from a purely humanitarian angle.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Yeah & pigs can fly ! Haliburton have gone in their from a purely humanitarian angle.

A private company can't just "go in".

If they are in Iraq that suggests the Iraquis have let them in.

What if the Iraqui government employed them to make their oil production more efficient?

 

[beorhthelm]

why not ? harriers were certainly used to enforce a no fly zone against the bosnian serbs.

im not a military strategist, but as i understand it you want fast supersonic bombers and fighters to do the initial "enforcement" of taking out air defence and other fighters. Tornados, F16, F18s and the like. once done, you have anything patroling. not saying cant use Harriers, just that they aren't the weapon of choice.

 

[Brovion]

Apparently, and im shocked to hear it, there are TWO sides to this situation in Libya. Most of the Libyan population lives in Tripoli and its surrounds, and most of Tripoli supports Ghaddafi...
Why are people in Britain deciding to take the 'insurgents' side in this internal situation? Im fairly sure we didnt take the 'insurgents' side in Iraq or Afghanistan,....

That's a very good point. Let's assume that money and equipment isn't an issue and we DO intervene. We institute a 'No Fly' zone, shoot down Ghadaffi's planes, bomb the crap out of his airfields and give covert (or not-so-covert) military aid to the insurgents/rebels/terrorists/freedom fighters (the name depends on your perspective). They then win the war, Ghadaffi abdicates and a new ruler takes over - who then proceeds to perpetuate dreadful human rights abuses on all supporters of the old regime that his secret police can round up. And their families. And friends. Plus ca change.

 

[adrian29uk]

Problem is they'd just change sides as soon as they started losing.

What's the difference between a bunch of Italians and a loaf of bread?

You can make soldiers our of a loaf of bread.

Just you wait till I tell my 75 year old mum. Your finished mate making jokes about the Italian Army. I suggest you check your brake pipes every morning and make sure know one is following you from now on. You have been warned.

 

[somerset]

For fook sake,... who is war mongering eh??.... this fookwit is using well equipped forces to kick the shite out of his own people,.... someone has to stand up and be counted,..... I bet you just walk on by if you pass an old lady getting mugged in your street,.. eh?... bet you do.............. and before you say it,... oil is not the motivation,... nor is it because we like to put down Islamic countries,... an example you say?... how about Bosnia and kosovo,... both were nothing to do with oil, and were to protect the muslim population.