Here we go mongering war agin

[Tyrone Biggums]

We could start by not selling weapons to dictators which they go on to use to kill their own people.

We cant espouse the virtues of peace, justice and liberty, while abondoning them wholesale ourselves.

We undermine exactly that which we claim to advocate.

"Wars are poor chisels for carving out peaceful tomorrows." - Martin Luther King

I think you'll find the UK hasn't sold Libya anything(or next to nothing).

It's also a little more complicated than "not selling weapons to dictators".

When faced with a situation where by it's obvious at that point in time one regime is far less dangerous than another which do you support?

Or do you propose you support neither and let them fight it out until they are all dead or there is a winner?

 

[dingodan]

I think you'll find the UK hasn't sold Libya anything(or next to nothing).

It's also a little more complicated than "not selling weapons to dictators".

When faced with a situation where by it's obvious at that point in time one regime is far less dangerous than another which do you support?

Or do you propose you support neither and let them fight it out until they are all dead or there is a winner?

Oh, I think you'll find that we have:

EU arms exports to Libya: who armed Gaddafi? | News | guardian.co.uk

ees complicated eh

Its not complicated its simple. We mind our own business, make sure our house is in order and make sure we defend liberty and justice in this country.

To the extent that we can exert influence elsewhere - fantastic, but I would propose that we dont support any sides militarily, are we the policeman of the world?

Our methods are crass - Do what we say and we will give you money and sell you weapons. Dont do what we say and we will bomb you.

It might be funny if it wasnt so frighteningly dangerous and immoral.

 

[BadFish]

Can't we finish the wars we are already in before getting involved in another?

What if this one takes 10 years to deal with like Afghanistan and Iraq?

At least if we get involved we will be able to put our guy in charge and have some cheap oil. Just like in....Ira.....Afghan.......OH!

 

[bhaexpress]

Frankly it's high time we dropped this desire to meddle in other people's affairs, it just gives terrorists even more reason to bomb us. We have gone into Iraq to try and sort them out and yet people are still dying there. As others have said it's time for a few of our fellow EEC 'allies' to get involved but as they don't want to why should we ? We need to look after our own mess before we even think about giving what we call 'help' to countries like Libya.

 

[Brovion]

Can't we finish the wars we are already in before getting involved in another?

What if this one takes 10 years to deal with like Afghanistan and Iraq?

At least if we get involved we will be able to put our guy in charge and have some cheap oil. Just like in....Ira.....Afghan.......OH!

We're not in Iraq any more. A bit like the FA Cup we got knocked out so we could 'concentrate on Afghanistan'. People sneer at Italian military prowess but Iraq was hardly Britain's finest hour. But it's a valid point nonetheless.

Perhaps we could do what we did in Bosnia? Be part of a UN force that blows a lot of hot air, wags its finger and pontificates earnestly about its Terms of Engagement and about the differences between 'Safe Areas' and 'Safe Havens' whilst letting the locals get on with the actual war until the fighting comes to a natural end. That way we can be seen to be 'doing something' while not actually doing anything.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So the alternative to not acting is to allow the rebels ( and many many civilians ) to be slaughtered by war planes ? It would be completely immoral to stand by and just allow mass murder. Those who advocate doing nothing ( or minding our own business as some prefer to say ) - would you walk on by on the other side of the street if you saw an old lady being mugged ? After all, it's none of your business.

 

[bhaexpress]

would you walk on by on the other side of the street if you saw an old lady being mugged ? After all, it's none of your business.

If it happens in our country yes it is however what happens in Libya is not. I wouldn't mind but why do we appear to be the only EEC country that gives a damn ?

 

[User removed 4]

this would be a Tyhoon deployment, operating from bases in Italy, Turkey?. while we might lament their loss, Harriers and their carriers are not really suitable for this sort of operation.

why not ? harriers were certainly used to enforce a no fly zone against the bosnian serbs.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

If it happens in our country yes it is however what happens in Libya is not. I wouldn't mind but why do we appear to be the only EEC country that gives a damn ?

Moral obligation doesn't stop at international boarders - so if you were on holiday in say Germany you wouldn't step in ? We're not the only European country getting ready to enforce the no-fly zone - France are doing likewise.

 

[robbie c]

If we are seen as leading this, there is always a European backlash against us.
I guess I have just wasted my money on Blue winning Eurovision

 

[Westdene Seagull]

If we are seen as leading this, there is always a European backlash against us.
I guess I have just wasted my money on Blue winning Eurovision

- TBH I think your money was gone well before this !

 

[Brovion]

So the alternative to not acting is to allow the rebels ( and many many civilians ) to be slaughtered by war planes ? It would be completely immoral to stand by and just allow mass murder. Those who advocate doing nothing ( or minding our own business as some prefer to say ) - would you walk on by on the other side of the street if you saw an old lady being mugged ? After all, it's none of your business.

That assumes that if we intervene we CAN stop it. If Iraq taught us anything it's that wars never work out as planned. Be a good 'dingodan' cover though. We intervene supposedly on humanitarian grounds to overthrow a corrupt leader and save lives but 'everyone' knows we've done it so we can control the oil.

 

[dingodan]

That assumes that if we intervene we CAN stop it. If Iraq taught us anything it's that wars never work out as planned. Be a good 'dingodan' cover though. We intervene supposedly on humanitarian grounds to overthrow a corrupt leader and save lives but 'everyone' knows we've done it so we can control the oil.

Thanks for that. But its true. If we care about the humanitarian situation, why are we not so ready to act in Bahrain agains Saudi Arabia? What about Sudan? Not very consistant are we?

And you are right on about things not working out as planned. There are always unintended consequences. The CIA has taught about blowback for a long time.

 

[daveinprague]

Apparently, and im shocked to hear it, there are TWO sides to this situation in Libya. Most of the Libyan population lives in Tripoli and its surrounds, and most of Tripoli supports Ghaddafi...
Why are people in Britain deciding to take the 'insurgents' side in this internal situation? Im fairly sure we didnt take the 'insurgents' side in Iraq or Afghanistan, in fact I heard many Americans and British people suggesting nuclear attacks and turning Iraq into glass.. What right, and on what grounds do we have to interfere in another sovereign nations affairs, especially when a lot of people couldnt find the place on a map before it started.

 

[somerset]

Naive question - why are we bothered about Libya? Do we get much of our oil from there?

More than from anywhere else yes................

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Oh, I think you'll find that we have:

EU arms exports to Libya: who armed Gaddafi? | News | guardian.co.uk

ees complicated eh

Its not complicated its simple. We mind our own business, make sure our house is in order and make sure we defend liberty and justice in this country.

To the extent that we can exert influence elsewhere - fantastic, but I would propose that we dont support any sides militarily, are we the policeman of the world?

Our methods are crass - Do what we say and we will give you money and sell you weapons. Dont do what we say and we will bomb you.

It might be funny if it wasnt so frighteningly dangerous and immoral.

Yes it's complicated.

Those figures don't mean they are selling them 5000 tanks nor 500 state of the art combat planes.

The quoted figures can take in comercial vehicles, average stuff like riot gear and equipement for police.

Added a lot of those figure are simply licences issued for potential sales. Doesn't mean anything is sold though.

Maybe you should have read the article properly. The bulk of the UK's exports were electronic equipment. Not missiles or nukes...

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Apparently, and im shocked to hear it, there are TWO sides to this situation in Libya. Most of the Libyan population lives in Tripoli and its surrounds, and most of Tripoli supports Ghaddafi...
Why are people in Britain deciding to take the 'insurgents' side in this internal situation? Im fairly sure we didnt take the 'insurgents' side in Iraq or Afghanistan, in fact I heard many Americans and British people suggesting nuclear attacks and turning Iraq into glass.. What right, and on what grounds do we have to interfere in another sovereign nations affairs, especially when a lot of people couldnt find the place on a map before it started.

Isn't it blindingly obvious?

Those they took out in Iraq originally had murded thousands of Kurds.

The "insurgents" in Libya had protested for political reform.

Kind of a difference there.

 

[daveinprague]

The Iraqi government killed kurds in the border areas with Iran when fighting the war against Iran...also, there was evidence of collusion with the Iranians during the war with them.
and who wants the political reform...like i said...most of the country lives in Tripoli and its surrounds and support Ghaddafi...what about their politics....

and what the feck has it got to do with us?

 

[dingodan]

Yes it's complicated.

Those figures don't mean they are selling them 5000 tanks nor 500 state of the art combat planes.

The quoted figures can take in comercial vehicles, average stuff like riot gear and equipement for police.

Added a lot of those figure are simply licences issued for potential sales. Doesn't mean anything is sold though.

Maybe you should have read the article properly. The bulk of the UK's exports were electronic equipment. Not missiles or nukes...

For clarity:

UK Arms Exports to Libya:

Ammunition and Fuses: 3,088 Euros
Tear gas/Chem weapons: 455,705 Euros
Electronic Equip: 26,163,548 Euros
Military Planes: 2,118,152 Euros
Small Arms: 283,942 Euros

 

[chucky1973]

Correct me if I am wrong, we are not talking about "invading Libya, or going to war with them" we are talking about sharing responsibilty with the other nations involved in protecting the airspace so that they cant fly there planes to bomb civilians........This could all blow over in a matter of days........

But then again, he is a plumb that bloke in charge and if he shots at one of the planes then it could all kick off......