Gay Footballers...Appreciated or Unwelcome?

[KneeOn]

Jamie approached me by email (some time ago as it happens, but I only caught up last night) and I said I'd have no problem with him posting on NSC to ask for people to help out.

I did so, because...

a) Jamie was polite enough to ask before posting - most people aren't.
b) I clicked through to the survey and there was nothing too contentious or liable to cause upset to NSC's great and good.
c) For obvious reasons, our club and our fans might have stronger views about homophobia in and around the beautiful game.

If people weren't interested, I expected the post just to drift down and disappear from view. I didn't expect such unfriendly retorts, which I think is all a bit unfortunate.

Fair play!c

 

[KneeOn]

I actually think that this boards reaction, about a team that sits in what was once the gay capital of england/Europe and still might be (i don't know) tells a lot.

We're far more liberal and open in Brighton, I bet this response wouldn't happen up north (sorry to generalize) because the values there are different. Obviously, i'm not sayin homophobia is rife up north, but more people may show intolerance than in the "hip" tolerant Brighton. Supposing the study was localized to Sussex, then yes it'd be pointless since we've been shown to have more liberal tolerant views than other places. But its a national survey, and therefore these responses of "who cares" show local trends that may differ across the nation.

 

[Napper]

NSC + Gay issues = soap box's galore

Survey completed

 

[Lady Whistledown]

I think professional sport is one of the few places left where homophobia persists (in fact, I'm pushed to think of many other places - the armed forces maybe). Gays can come out in politics, business, the arts and the media but not sport.

Even within sport, I think football is one of the last refuges for those who would prefer to remain firmly in the Dark Ages.

There are rugby players who've come out, Aussie Rules players, that basketball guy (albeit only after he'd retired I suppose). I'm sure there was someone on the tennis circuit- and clearly there have been gay female tennis players by the bucketload. In fact it's a bit weird innit that there have been countless well known gay women in sport. Wonder why they're accepted but not the men?

I don't suppose there are many gay snooker or darts players, but then what self respecting gay man would wear a Hawaiian shirt or a bow tie and gain twelve stone just to make a living?

 

[Gwylan]

Even within sport, I think football is one of the last refuges for those who would prefer to remain firmly in the Dark Ages.

There are rugby players who've come out, Aussie Rules players, that basketball guy (albeit only after he'd retired I suppose). I'm sure there was someone on the tennis circuit- and clearly there have been gay female tennis players by the bucketload. In fact it's a bit weird innit that there have been countless well known gay women in sport. Wonder why they're accepted but not the men?

I don't suppose there are many gay snooker or darts players, but then what self respecting gay man would wear a Hawaiian shirt or a bow tie and gain twelve stone just to make a living?

Not that many from other sports though. Only one out gay cricketer (from Sussex, of course) and only one out rugby player that I think of (Gareth Thomas). I'm sure there are plenty more in those sports who haven't come out.

As for gay women, perhaps it's a legacy from the fact that lesbianism has never been illegal whereas male homesexuality has been illegal in my lifetime.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

Its nothing to do with whether some fans 'dont care' if a player is gay or not but about the fact that they do not 'come out' for fear of abuse from other supporters and an obvious lack of support from within the game. Max Clifford has said dont stick your head above the parapit wall and thats probably the best advice at the moment if he is generally trying to help an individual but Gordon Taylors stance - seeing he is actually involved with these players - was just typical from within the game.

That was my reaction exactly. Clifford (for once) was probably correct, in that he's effectively shielding the players from abuse.

Taylor, on the other hand, is supposed to be the players' union representative, including any and all gay players who are members of the PFA, and yet he's effectively saying he wouldn't back a campaign to support his own members because he's worried a few other members- and let's assume that it would largely be straight players asked to participate in any campaign because there are no out gay ones- might subsequently get a few wolf whistles from crowds.

So basically he's saying it's acceptable in 2010 for gay players to have to live their lives in the closet and deal with any abuse that comes their way, because he doesn't want anyone calling Jermain Defoe, or Frank Lampard, or David Nugent (for example) a poof.

Spineless, IMHO.

 

[Acker79]

Taylor, on the other hand, is supposed to be the players' union representative, including any and all gay players who are members of the PFA, and yet he's effectively saying he wouldn't back a campaign to support his own members because he's worried a few other members- and let's assume that it would largely be straight players asked to participate in any campaign because there are no out gay ones- might subsequently get a few wolf whistles from crowds.

So basically he's saying it's acceptable in 2010 for gay players to have to live their lives in the closet and deal with any abuse that comes their way, because he doesn't want anyone calling Jermain Defoe, or Frank Lampard, or David Nugent (for example) a poof.

Spineless, IMHO.

I took his comments to be that it would be asking someone to be the focal point of homophobia. If, for arguments sake, Steven Gerrard came out as gay and agreed to lead an anti-homophobia campaign, he would be putting himself out on a limb. He would be the focal point and be drawing attention to himself, leading to abuse from fans up and down the country, on messageboards, at grounds, on phone ins, players trying to wind him up and put him off his game would use homophobic slurs, managers may not pick him or play him in his preferred place, or simply have a frosty relationship with him in an effort to drive him out, or simply as a subconscious form of their own prejudice.

That is an awful lot to ask someone to go through, in the name of a social change that some might argue isn't really the FA or PFA's responsibility. The FA has a responsibility to the game, not to social change, the PFA have a responsibility to protect its members, is asking one to go out on a limb like that going to protect them, or expose them?

 

[Lady Whistledown]

Not that many from other sports though. Only one out gay cricketer (from Sussex, of course) and only one out rugby player that I think of (Gareth Thomas). I'm sure there are plenty more in those sports who haven't come out.

I can't even think who the Sussex cricketer is/was, unless I'm having a complete mindfart?

Just from Googling (and I accept that not all of these are necessarily as popular sports as football) I found a fair few "out" sportsmen:

-Donal Og Cusack (All Ireland hurling champion)

-Chris Morgan (UK- world powerlifting champion)

-Blake Skjellerup (New Zealand Olympic speed skater)

-Nigel Owens (international rugby referee)

-Daniel Kowalski (Australian Olympic swimming medallist)

-Ian Roberts (Australia, rugby league)

There appear to have been a few American sportsmen (baseball and their football) to have come out, but only after they've finished playing.
Obviously there are plenty of gay figure skaters, but that's always been considerably more accepting...even expected

 

[Lady Whistledown]

I took his comments to be that it would be asking someone to be the focal point of homophobia. If, for arguments sake, Steven Gerrard came out as gay and agreed to lead an anti-homophobia campaign, he would be putting himself out on a limb. He would be the focal point and be drawing attention to himself, leading to abuse from fans up and down the country, on messageboards, at grounds, on phone ins, players trying to wind him up and put him off his game would use homophobic slurs, managers may not pick him or play him in his preferred place, or simply have a frosty relationship with him in an effort to drive him out, or simply as a subconscious form of their own prejudice.

That is an awful lot to ask someone to go through, in the name of a social change that some might argue isn't really the FA or PFA's responsibility. The FA has a responsibility to the game, not to social change, the PFA have a responsibility to protect its members, is asking one to go out on a limb like that going to protect them, or expose them?

I don't think it's that. Clearly he wouldn't ask someone to come out as gay just to do this. There is no reason why a straight player like Gerrard can't stand up and say homophobia is wrong, just like a white player could figure in an anti-racism campaign.

As I read it, Taylor is saying he wouldn't ask (for example) Steven Gerrard to make a stand against homophobia because Gerrard might get some stick for it.

Which frankly is playground stuff, both from Taylor and from any fan who would abuse Gerrard simply because he appeared in a campaign.

 

[Gwylan]

I can't even think who the Sussex cricketer is/was, unless I'm having a complete mindfart?

Sussex seam bowler of the early 90s, Alan Hansford. I can't think of a single other gay cricketer.

I don't deny that sports people have come out (there was that gay diver too, Greg something) but not too many.

 

[matt]

Alan Hansford from Burgess Hill?

 

[Lady Whistledown]

Sussex seam bowler of the early 90s, Alan Hansford. I can't think of a single other gay cricketer.

I don't deny that sports people have come out (there was that gay diver too, Greg something) but not too many.

Louganis, he of hitting his head on the board fame.

 

[Napper]

I don't think it's that. Clearly he wouldn't ask someone to come out as gay just to do this. There is no reason why a straight player like Gerrard can't stand up and say homophobia is wrong, just like a white player could figure in an anti-racism campaign.

As I read it, Taylor is saying he wouldn't ask (for example) Steven Gerrard to make a stand against homophobia because Gerrard might get some stick for it.

Which frankly is playground stuff, both from Taylor and from any fan who would abuse Gerrard simply because he appeared in a campaign.

I think Acker is right. The abuse a player would get and the reaction he would get would probably ruin his career.

Am I right in thinking you are a girl ? with respect, aside from this board alot of blokes are still anti gay and even if they arn't would easily join in with songs to get to an opposing player.

Just not worth it, it's widely accepted in this country that Gays are about etc and they live in harmony , why the need for constant pushing of their cause. That itself can cause resentment

 

[Joey Deacon's Disco Suit]

No problem with the survey - Max Clifford, for once, was right with his comments.

Max Clifford is a hypocrite. A year or two back, Max was employed by Simon Jordan to go on the radio and defend homophobic comments that Tangoman made to Brighton fans on the Sky Soccer AM programme. Clifford's response was that It was all just banter and happens all the time in football.

The man is an absolute charlatan who will say anything for the right price and would be any sane person's last port of call as a moral compass.

Don't believe me? Ask Radio Sussex for the recording.

I'm gobsmacked, quite frankly, that Clifford has made his comments now denouncing homophobia in football (unless, of course he's got a juicystory brewing). He's a disgrace.

 

[Gwylan]

Am I right in thinking you are a girl ? with respect, aside from this board alot of blokes are still anti gay and even if they arn't would easily join in with songs to get to an opposing player.

And a warm welcome to our a poster from the 1970s .... when you reach the 21st century, I think you'll find things are a bit different.

 

[bhaexpress]

I didn't say that homophobia didn't exist any more, I said that prominent politicians, business people and artists could now come out as gay. That's not to say that every gay person has, because, as you say, there are still pockets of homophobia.

The point is that no footballer has come out as gay (while playing) and that's something that should be addressed. It's crazy in 2010.

Why though ? Would you want your sexual persuasions become a matter for public discussion ? Frankly if people just ignored such issues and just got on with their lives it would all be a lot simpler. What annoys a lot of people are those who make a point of their views be it their sexuality, their religion, their politics and so on. As long as it's legal it's all a matter of personal choice so why the need to say anything ?

 

[Napper]

Why though ? Would you want your sexual persuasions become a matter for public discussion ? Frankly if people just ignored such issues and just got on with their lives it would all be a lot simpler. What annoys a lot of people are those who make a point of their views be it their sexuality, their religion, their politics and so on. As long as it's legal it's all a matter of personal choice so why the need to say anything ?

Correct.

It is almost doing the Gays cause more harm

Like you say if everyone just got on with it then thats the best way

 

[Acker79]

I don't think it's that. Clearly he wouldn't ask someone to come out as gay just to do this. There is no reason why a straig:t player like Gerrard can't stand up and say homophobia is wrong, just like a white player could figure in an anti-racism campaign.

There is no reason a straight player can't do it, but it would still lead to the same events, and is still a lot to ask of someone who didn't get in to football to change the world.

As I read it, (going from memory of filling in the questionnaire) he won't ask a player to front the campaign. Would he get behind a campaign if someone volunteered to front it?


Just found this on the kick it out website. I didn't realise they already had this section
Homophobia in football

 

[Lady Whistledown]

I don't think being able to be open about stuff is about "shouting it from the rooftops" as some of you seem to think.

It's about being able to live your life normally like any of us do. When someone asks what you're doing at the weekend, to be able to say you're going for a drink with your other half without worrying that the other players will realise it's a bloke and get funny about it. To bring that person to a night out without feeling it's a major issue with your team mates, or thinking someone's going to go running to the press. To not have people constantly questioning why you never talk about partners, and to sit in the dressing room without having other players going on about "benders", never thinking that it might upset someone.

That's all it is, a simple case of living your life. I doubt very much that any player really wants to be a cause, they just want what you or I have, to be able to get on with life with the person they want to be with, without anyone making a big deal of it or dishing out stick.

 

[Joey Deacon's Disco Suit]

Correct.

It is almost doing the Gays cause more harm

Like you say if everyone just got on with it then thats the best way

You've proved with post after post your own homophobic credentials so please excuse me if I don't believe you've got harmony and understanding at the foremost of your mind.