Forest Appoint McLaren

[Herr Tubthumper]

Because so many other coaches (many with more accolades, considered 'better' than McClaren) have made great success of our national team?

But he made some dumb decisions, dropping Beckham and sticking a debutant between the posts for a crucial game are two.

 

[dingodan]

I hate his face.

 

[Acker79]

But he made some dumb decisions, dropping Beckham and sticking a debutant between the posts for a crucial game are two.

I'd argue neither are dumb, or at least they are only dumb because they didn't work out.

With Beckham there were two issues at play - his close association to Sven and power in the squad, and the fact he was getting older and his England career was winding down. Beckham brings a certain passion to the team, but he isn't the threat he was and his performances since haven't exactly shown he can lift the team enough to over come the frailties we had under mcclaren. I would argue that at worst this was a short-sighted decision, but not a dumb or illogical one .

With Scott Carson, it was limited options, Paul Robinson was on a run of poor form having made several mistakes himself. In retrospect it was the wrong decision, but not putting a debutant in because of the pressure is why Joe Hart didn't feature in the world cup, yet people, in retrospect, say he should have started. You only know if the debutant will handle the pressure after the fact. As far as I recall there were people calling for Carson to get his chance at the time. It was a risk that didn't pay off. Not exactly dumb.

 

[sten_super]

I'd argue neither are dumb, or at least they are only dumb because they didn't work out.

With Beckham there were two issues at play - his close association to Sven and power in the squad, and the fact he was getting older and his England career was winding down. Beckham brings a certain passion to the team, but he isn't the threat he was and his performances since haven't exactly shown he can lift the team enough to over come the frailties we had under mcclaren. I would argue that at worst this was a short-sighted decision, but not a dumb or illogical one .

With Scott Carson, it was limited options, Paul Robinson was on a run of poor form having made several mistakes himself. In retrospect it was the wrong decision, but not putting a debutant in because of the pressure is why Joe Hart didn't feature in the world cup, yet people, in retrospect, say he should have started. You only know if the debutant will handle the pressure after the fact. As far as I recall there were people calling for Carson to get his chance at the time. It was a risk that didn't pay off. Not exactly dumb.

This. There was clear logic behind the Beckham decision, it was only the 20-20 nature of hindsight that shows it up as a bad decision. Similarly, from memory a LOT of people (myself and many others on this board included) were calling for Carson to play as he'd been very impressive for his team (Villa on loan I think?) at the time.

I'm amazed that McClaren hasn't got a bigger job. I think he'd have done a good job at Villa, the 'outcry' amongst Villa fans was ridiculous (and not unlike some of the weird posts on here that the likes of Earnshaw and Bothroyd aren't good enough for us). Fair play to Schteve for taking a job in the Championship; it would have been very easy for him to sit on the sidelines waiting for a Prem job to come along.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

I'll be honest here, TLO has put me in my place and here I shall stay, but if I can just say, I did watch Boro games (not a Boro fan) and didn't rate them, I was surprised when McLaren was put in charge of England. I would say I was perhaps a touch hasty when I said I have an underlying hatred for him , that was a bit far!

Your opinion is valued and welcomed, otherwise this would not be a forum! However look at ex England managers and their successes with league clubs. Bobby Robson, Kevin Keegan, Sven, Venners, Capello and EVEN Graham Taylor. I'd say it has more to do with the England set up than the individuals. I find McLaren very arrogant in front of camera's and even a little bit thick with the Dutch accent and the umbrella saga. But he is a good manager and will do very well with Forest I am sure. Championship is such a strong league, next season is going to be exciting to say the least!

 

[Bold Seagull]

I'd argue neither are dumb, or at least they are only dumb because they didn't work out.

With Beckham there were two issues at play - his close association to Sven and power in the squad, and the fact he was getting older and his England career was winding down. Beckham brings a certain passion to the team, but he isn't the threat he was and his performances since haven't exactly shown he can lift the team enough to over come the frailties we had under mcclaren. I would argue that at worst this was a short-sighted decision, but not a dumb or illogical one .

With Scott Carson, it was limited options, Paul Robinson was on a run of poor form having made several mistakes himself. In retrospect it was the wrong decision, but not putting a debutant in because of the pressure is why Joe Hart didn't feature in the world cup, yet people, in retrospect, say he should have started. You only know if the debutant will handle the pressure after the fact. As far as I recall there were people calling for Carson to get his chance at the time. It was a risk that didn't pay off. Not exactly dumb.

This. There was clear logic behind the Beckham decision, it was only the 20-20 nature of hindsight that shows it up as a bad decision. Similarly, from memory a LOT of people (myself and many others on this board included) were calling for Carson to play as he'd been very impressive for his team (Villa on loan I think?) at the time.

I'm amazed that McClaren hasn't got a bigger job. I think he'd have done a good job at Villa, the 'outcry' amongst Villa fans was ridiculous (and not unlike some of the weird posts on here that the likes of Earnshaw and Bothroyd aren't good enough for us). Fair play to Schteve for taking a job in the Championship; it would have been very easy for him to sit on the sidelines waiting for a Prem job to come along.

Well, the game is about opinions, but dropping Beckham to me was an absolute howler, not in hindsight but at the time. This was the desperate act of a manager with little respect from the dressing using a player to flex his power. Beckham was playing well in Madrid at the time, got back in the team and won the title. Through hard work and good performances he transformed Capello's view of him and he became a key figure in that team like in every team he played for.

Who came in for Beckham?? Shaun Wright Philips, Kieran Richardson and Lennon. Ridiculous a decision now as it was then. I would go as far to say we would have qualified with Beckham in that team. Although I blame the FA for appointing McClaren in the first place, he was always on a hiding to nothing with that squad of jumped up pre-madonna's as Capello is finding out...

 

[BensGrandad]

I think Forest would have been one of the favourites prior to appointing McLaren this has just strengthened their position and if we finish above them we will at least make the play offs, possibly even get automatic promotion.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

or at least they are only dumb because they didn't work out.

Interesting logic. My take is that someone in his position is paid handomly to call the right shots ie ones that work out.

 

[stss30]

I think Forest would have been one of the favourites prior to appointing McLaren this has just strengthened their position and if we finish above them we will at least make the play offs, possibly even get automatic promotion.

Your right, but I don't think (or hope) that any of our fans think/thought that we'd finish above Forest anyway... Otherwise I fear they'll be bitterly disappointed...

 

[BensGrandad]

To achieve TBs top six aim we will need to be very near to them.

 

[stss30]

To achieve TBs top six aim we will need to be very near to them.

He said we'd be 'aiming' for top 6, which is obviously what every club is doing. However, Poyet has said several times we just need to consolidate our championship position and try and gradually improve season on season

 

[Acker79]

Interesting logic. My take is that someone in his position is paid handomly to call the right shots ie ones that work out.

There are dumb decision made that end up working out for the best, there are decision made in good faith that don't turn out as expected and/or hoped. When I say it was on dum because it didn't work out, I simply mean there was a logical reason behind the decision, and there was potential for them to work out. They didn't, so looking back people see the result of the decision as a foregone conclusion that should have been foretold. Neither were, imo.

He made a decision, he put his faith in the next generation and they didn't step up. If wright-phillips had lived up to his potential we wouldn't have missed beckham, if Carson showed the sort of confidence that Joe Hart has showed since he joined the team we would have qualified, and the very same decisions would have been hailed as a master stroke.

My 'interesting logic' is simply 'The results of the decision are painting the decisions in a more negative light'.

 

[Acker79]

He said we'd be 'aiming' for top 6, which is obviously what every club is doing. However, Poyet has said several times we just need to consolidate our championship position and try and gradually improve season on season

Last year Bloom wanted top two, Gus said top ten was his aim, look how that turned out.

 

[Scotty Mac]

Well, the game is about opinions, but dropping Beckham to me was an absolute howler, not in hindsight but at the time. This was the desperate act of a manager with little respect from the dressing using a player to flex his power. Beckham was playing well in Madrid at the time, got back in the team and won the title. Through hard work and good performances he transformed Capello's view of him and he became a key figure in that team like in every team he played for.

Who came in for Beckham?? Shaun Wright Philips, Kieran Richardson and Lennon. Ridiculous a decision now as it was then. I would go as far to say we would have qualified with Beckham in that team. Although I blame the FA for appointing McClaren in the first place, he was always on a hiding to nothing with that squad of jumped up pre-madonna's as Capello is finding out...

he wasn't playing well in madrid at the time - he wasn't playing at the time at all as capello had dropped him, hence his omission from mcclarens first squad

and those players you've listed didn't play either. gerrard was on the right with hargreaves and lampard in the middle for the first three games. when hargreaves got injured, then carrick took his place. when beckham got his place back in the madrid line-up around the turn of the year and was playing regularly again he was recalled, although admittedley not at the first opportunity which would have been the israel and andorra away games. instead he waited until june for the brazil friendly and estonia away. no matter how special beckham is, you can't justify picking him if he wasn't representing his club side

the biggest mistake mcclaren made was changing to a 3-5-2 for the first time in a game away at croatia who hadn't lost a home qualifier in christ knows how long. doing that would have been hard enough in one of the easier games in the group, but there was a mental decision. although it did highlight the total inflexibility of our so-called world class players to adapt

 

[Bold Seagull]

he wasn't playing well in madrid at the time - he wasn't playing at the time at all as capello had dropped him, hence his omission from mcclarens first squad

and those players you've listed didn't play either. gerrard was on the right with hargreaves and lampard in the middle for the first three games. when hargreaves got injured, then carrick took his place. when beckham got his place back in the madrid line-up around the turn of the year and was playing regularly again he was recalled, although admittedley not at the first opportunity which would have been the israel and andorra away games. instead he waited until june for the brazil friendly and estonia away. no matter how special beckham is, you can't justify picking him if he wasn't representing his club side

the biggest mistake mcclaren made was changing to a 3-5-2 for the first time in a game away at croatia who hadn't lost a home qualifier in christ knows how long. doing that would have been hard enough in one of the easier games in the group, but there was a mental decision. although it did highlight the total inflexibility of our so-called world class players to adapt

Firstly, Beckham was dropped from the England squad not just the team. Your starting XI is right, but on the bench and in the squad were the players I mentioned, Beckham wasn't even there as a sub - again ridiculous given the quality of his delivery, and ability to come on in a variety of situations.

Secondly, when McClaren made the announcement he was dropping him from the England set up entirely, it was on 11 August 2006 - La Liga that season had not even started, and the previous season he had played well and been a regular throughout the season. So your argument about not being in your club side is irrelevant.

Thirdly, he may not have been starting regularly for Real in 2006/07, but he was playing a part at the start of the season, and made 31 appearances for the club, despite Capello dropping him for a month for his LA Galaxy negotiations in January 2007.

I can't understand why people look to rewrite history!? McClaren dropped him to make a point, all this nonsense about he wasn't playing well etc. is post rationalisation.

 

[DarrenFreemansPerm]

Feel free to bump this thread next March and gloat if Forest are in the relegation places!

I know it's not quite March...

 

[essbee]

I couldn't believe the number of people on here who thought it was a
good appointment back in early summer. He is a manager like so many
that will screw up eventually - and then move on.

 

[DarrenFreemansPerm]

I couldn't believe the number of people on here who thought it was a
good appointment back in early summer. He is a manager like so many
that will screw up eventually - and then move on.

Yep, and he's cocked it up with a team that isn't a million miles from that which Billy Davies had

 

[Brovion]

I know it's not quite March...

Ha! But it is nowhere NEAR March! Apparently he was going to resign before after a couple of matches and 'decided against it', so the job obviously wasn't what he was expecting from Day One.

It is ridiculously early for the fans to turn and for him (and the board) to decide it's best if he leaves. If our season (so far) had been reversed, if our current bad run (one point out of twelve) had come at the start of of our Championship campaign NSC would have been awash with the Doom 'n' Gloom mongers saying that Poyet had been found out and that he wasn't a Championship-level manager. Bloom should sack him now to save our season! The current upswing that had seen us move up to fifth wouldn't be enough to remove the suspicion from a few minds.

But yes, I'll have to admit I was expecting him to make better fist of coaching the existing players than he has done, so I guess I'm more surprised than you are at the turn of events.

 

[mcshane in the 79th]

Hands up - I got it wrong.

He'll have to go abroad now again where I suspect he might do a decent job. England and Steve McLaren just don't mix!