Evolution debate.

[ThePaddy]

You know, Science and that. Libraries, education, internet, rational thinking, cause and effect, etc.

None of the scientific knowledge we have actually "disproves" a God, because the nature of the deity itself as defined by most religions means that you can't disprove it.

The only logically consistent view to take (in my opinion) is that there is probably no God, as we have yet to find any evidence whatsoever that he exists.

The thing I don't understand is how people can make the leap from "I don't know how the Universe was created, I don't accept that it was a random series of events so I will believe in a creator" to "I believe in a creator that is both one part and three parts, that sacrificed one part of itself (that was inexplicably born a virgin) to a painful death that later led to his resurrection on earth for the sins of one species on one tiny planet in a tiny solar system in one tiny galaxy that doesn't even register on the scale of the universe."

The swing from semi-rational "fair enough" Deism to fully blown, utterly delusional Christianity is quite remarkable and shows what a strange and largely illogical species we are.

 

[Mellotron]

I've given plenty of reasons. Just because you don't believe my point of view don't make the mistake of thinking me militant or arrogant or that my posts are spam. Close minded I am not, I have been around religion and non religion all my life and drawn my own conclusions.
As for education, I suggest you turn an eye to the lamentable construction of your closing sentence.

The rather convenient and charmingly naive made up religion you seem to adhere to indicates neither open mindedness or education, more fanciful ideas and a gross inability to commit to one thing or the other.

Overgeneralising about massive groups of people is being close-minded. Assuming you are smarter than people you know next to nothing about is arrogant.

 

[Nibble]

And yet, I know so many religious people who are certainly a good deal more intelligent than you. From a really good mate who graduated with a 1st from Cambridge, binned a career in IT to become a priest near Oxford, to an actuary with 10 times the earning power of you and who is now a church warden locally - it just doesn't follow that you can have a faith and are unintelligent.

I don't get it myself, but you're just being ignorant to suggest that.

Yes, it does rather beggar belief that the evidence is there that there are indeed intelligent people who also believe in God. My Uncle is a Canon in Belfast as was my Great Uncle and my Grandfather who was also an Army Chaplain. All highly intelligent people, all men of faith. Baffling.

 

[sydney]

It's not a defined set of beliefs at all, it's just not believing in a single thing - God.

It helps to promote and influence nothing. You are confusing secular society and culture with atheism. It's just a term for not believing in God. You are trying to suggest it's more than that - it isn't.

And of course not all atheists agree with each - there is only one thing they have got in common; not believing in God! That's it, there is no other unifying factor or characteristic.

Can it really be argued that not believing in a God or a belief in a deity or something greater can lead to nihilism, and that life is ultimately pointless...etc....damaging to society? Can you really argue that case against what religion does, has done and is doing to the world!? Can you really successfully argue you that?

Do you really believe people think that life is pointless and deterministic if they don't believe in heaven or reincarnation or resurrection? You hold a belief and a faith that gives you comfort, profound inner strength and togetherness, but it is just a construct of your mind. Regardless of whether it is real and God is real is irrelevant because you don't know, you cannot know, and won't know until after you're dead. At present you just have a belief system based on faith that is mutually shared by others. It gives you nothing more than anyone else can have in their lives.

There is a freedom in having a belief in the joy of life, the wonderment of nature, of beauty, love, laughter, family, science, without recourse to a higher power determining whether we've been good enough for some kind of notion of after life - what is more deterministic than that? We are made of the stuff of stars, we twinkle for a blink in time and return to being star dust once more. There is nothing damaging to society in this. The only thing that can tear society apart is religion, it has that power and does it with regularity. There is nothing more nihilistic in this world than someone blowing themselves up for a steadfast belief that they are going somewhere better.

There is nothing more nihilistic than religion. It's absolute certainty in some form of paradise after death is the very negation of the value of this life on earth. It was actually Nietzsche who suggested that only the unburdening of our dependency on constructed belief systems would enable true enlightenment, that the complacency of Christianity values has only stifled the progression of man to unlock their real human spirit.

yeah..! that's what i meant. we have taken christianity all over the globe and rammed it down countless cultures throats , along with our "way of life" . Does anyone really think that the Amazon Indians are better of now that what they were 300 years ago...?

 

[Mellotron]

Yes, it does rather beggar belief that the evidence is there that there are indeed intelligent people who also believe in God. My Uncle is a Canon in Belfast as was my Great Uncle and my Grandfather who was also an Army Chaplain. All highly intelligent people, all men of faith. Baffling.

Or easily explainable. But you refuse to look at it objectively.

 

[Nibble]

Overgeneralising about massive groups of people is being close-minded. Assuming you are smarter than people you know next to nothing about is arrogant.

I hold with my argument that intelligent people can act idioticly.

 

[daveinprague]

Exactly. And poor old Dave is going round in circles now trying to argue himself out of a corner because clearly the problem is people and not the belief systems themselves - which was your point all along.

Im not going around in circles at all... I dont believe in God...sorry if that offends people who believe this fairy tale.
I belive that has caused millions of deaths, and caused suffering for millions.......

Not sure how that is going around in circles......

 

[One Love]

Coming in late to this, but just wanted to check that people don't assume that being a Christian = Creationist, right?

The vast vast vast majority of Christians I know accept and acknowledge evolution, and that the world is VERY old, not about 14,000 years old.

This is the huge problem with these debates because the ones on the "God" side of the fence tend to get pigeonholed.

 

[Simster]

there's too much evidence available to those in the west to sway an intelligent person into religion

Yes, it does rather beggar belief that the evidence is there that there are indeed intelligent people who also believe in God. My Uncle is a Canon in Belfast as was my Great Uncle and my Grandfather who was also an Army Chaplain. All highly intelligent people, all men of faith. Baffling.

Do make your mind up.

 

[Mellotron]

I hold with my argument that intelligent people can act idioticly.

the irony is PHENOMENAL.

 

[Mellotron]

This is the huge problem with these debates because the ones on the "God" side of the fence tend to get pigeonholed.

I think the media doesn't help this, as the most newsworthy people of faith are usually the extremes.

When someone I know finds out that I'm a Christian, they immediately assume about 20 things about me, pretty much all of which are completely wrong. Ignorance due to lack of proper information.

 

[Nibble]

Or easily explainable. But you refuse to look at it objectively.

Well explainability is purely subjective to whether one believes in God or not. I don't believe in God, therefore I find the belief in it idiotic, especially when intelligent men believe. If i believed in God I wouldn't find it idiotic, I would probably find it normal, perhaps even brave. This isn't closed mindeness it's applying my beliefs to situations I encounter.

 

[One Love]

I dont believe in God...sorry if that offends people who believe this fairy tale.

Who has taken offence?

You, by the sounds of it.

 

[Mellotron]

Well explainability is purely subjective to whether one believes in God or not. I don't believe in God, therefore I find the belief in it idiotic, especially when intelligent men believe. If i believed in God I wouldn't find it idiotic, I would probably find it normal, perhaps even brave. This isn't closed mindeness it's applying my beliefs to situations I encounter.

I believe in God, but I don't find non-belief idiotic at all. Because I'm open-minded and willing to accept that I MIGHT be wrong.

That can be the downside to the more pig-headed end of Science. Certain it is right because it is all based on rules. Until it gets proved wrong. Over and over and over and over and over and over again.

 

[Nibble]

the irony is PHENOMENAL.

Not being able to spell a certain word is not idiotic though is it. It's a weakness in an aspect of my intelligence but it does not denote idiocy. Besides, if I'm going to discuss semantics with anyone this afternoon it certainly won't be with you.

 

[daveinprague]

Who has taken offence?

You, by the sounds of it.

Nope...im not offended by fairy tales....not at all.
What offends me is what people do in these fantasies name.

 

[Nibble]

I believe in God, but I don't find non-belief idiotic at all. Because I'm open-minded and willing to accept that I MIGHT be wrong.

That's some mighty strong faith there ;-)

 

[Mellotron]

Not being able to spell a certain word is not idiotic though is it. It's a weakness in an aspect of my intelligence but it does not denote idiocy. Besides, if I'm going to discuss semantics with anyone this afternoon it certainly won't be with you.

I'm DEVASTATATED.

 

[ThePaddy]

I think the media doesn't help this, as the most newsworthy people of faith are usually the extremes.

When someone I know finds out that I'm a Christian, they immediately assume about 20 things about me, pretty much all of which are completely wrong. Ignorance due to lack of proper information.

Go on then.

What 20 things separate you from a Christian who believes that every word in the Bible is 100% true?

 

[Mellotron]

That's some mighty strong faith there ;-)

It's called logic, fella. I do agree with you to an extent in terms of idiocy, except I would posit that ALL humans are basically idiots.

Example: we've been on this planet a VERY short space of time - in the grand scheme of things - yet have already caused some pretty massive damage, and we will probably (certainly) be the death of it.

We understand about 2% of the world, I reckons. We're MUCH stupider than we think we are.