Evolution debate.

[Hugh'sDad]

God is dyslexic ........Fido told me.

 

[piersa]

In a few hundred years people will look back and laugh at the fact that some people believed in a god, just like we laugh at people who believed the world was flat.

 

[beorhthelm]

The problem I have with debates like this is that people believe that science can or has somehow falsified the existence of God, but it hasn't, far from it - possibly even the contrary.

Putting the apparent divine perfection of our universe and its life aside, we are learning through quantum physics that the atheist ideas of a deterministic, mechanistic, "Godless" universe are most probably wrong.

the problem i have is the assumption that science even has to: logic disproved the existance of god in greek times (see Epicurus). its daft that we still even consider all-powerful benevolent deity(s) when so much of the world now has better explaination than being a sky fairies 7 day project, poped out of his navel or was hewn from the corpse of a giant.

I also have a problem how atheisim is weighed with so many artifacts it has no concern of, its about simple non-belief. it doesnt assign determinism or anything else in its place. the implications of quantum mechanics say nothing for or against there being a "god".


btw, to whoever brought up Big Bang theory, this is actually a very good example of how science works. its not the same theory as was proposed decades ago, as observations and new discovery rule out scenarios, it has been rewritten. example, once it was assumed everything expanded then stopped, a observation noted this wasnt possible so now the accepted theory includes accelerating expansion of the universe. Dark matter and dark energy are artifacts of this scientific process, observations only meet the theory if you have more mass and energy than can be seen.

 

[daveinprague]

It's not really relevant but a part of me thinks we could possibly be the only living things in the universe. The sheer chance of life existing on earth seems so slim that it's entirely plausible we're the only ones. I've heard very well-respected astrophysicists arguing this case. On the other hand there could be intelligent life elsewhere but the distances involved and the technology required suggests that if they'd visited once then they would have left a bigger mark and visited more often and more visibly. What would they have to fear with all that technology at their disposal?

I haven't got the foggiest about intelligent life elsewhere but I sincerely doubt in the lifetime of the earth that we have been or ever will be visited by aliens and if they did then it comes down to concepts/technologies that are way beyond the human ability to understand or recreate. And if that's the case it's futile even trying to explain.

And to bring this full circle - that's what I think about the origins of the universe, the truth is far beyond human comprehension which is why the science v creation debate will never be resolved.

I saw a documentary recently about some dorp they found up high on a plateau in Peru, that they estimate to be from 18000 years before Christ... the stone cutting is so accurate, its unbelievable, and they dragged in 'experts' who said it would take serious engineering, and possibly diamond cutting techniques (the only thing harder than these rocks was diamonds apparently)...
I think something happened in our pre history...some sort of visit from somewhere, and I believe this memory is what people consider a visit from God.
If believing in a 'god' of some sort helps people through their days, then good luck to them...it doesnt really help me, or many other people....
There are billions of stars just in our solar system isnt there?... I think its a bit arrogant to suggest we are the only life form in the universe.

 

[Nibble]

That pre-supposes that all believers believe in an interventionist God. I know for a fact that Nick Cave doesn't.

I meant more on the "doing this in God's name" type of action rather than heavenly intervention, which is as you say, different.

 

[Nibble]

Atheism is a movement, as in it's a defined set of beliefs that people share and promote to influence the current Zeitgeist - what makes it different from religion is that it's not an organised movement, it's anarchic and not all atheists agree with one another.

It doesn't encourage any type of behaviour as a set of beliefs, but it can be argued that a lack of spirituality, or a lack of belief in something greater, can lead to a nihilistic view that life is ultimately pointless beyond selfish, hedonistic pursuits which are essentially unfulfilling and damaging to society.

You don't need religion to believe in God, I'm an example of this, but atheism does seem to generally be a detachment from any kind of spirituality, which is vital on both individual and societal levels to experience profound inner strength and togetherness. I'm not saying that no atheists have that, just that they are less likely to due to the implications of having a belief system that life is just a deterministic and pointless circumstance that is essentially meaningless.

Atheism is NOT a movement, it is the state of not believing in a God. Simply that. And no Atheist I have ever met or read about claims life is meaningless, quite the opposite. We just don't feel the need to project supernatural meaning onto it as we believe it is meaningful, bountiful, beautiful, miraculous and inherantly good without the need for magic.

You're making this up as you go along.

 

[One Love]

Religion, and its various 'churches' are the cause of more deaths on this planet than probably anything else.

No they are not. Humans are.

We find reasons for conflict. Different colour, different religion, different nationality etc etc. ANYTHING that differentiates from others. You could argue Geography is the reasoning behind more wars. Is Geography so terrible?

 

[One Love]

what...? muslims loving christians you mean...?

I was talking about spirituality, it's in my words.

 

[Buzzer]

I meant more on the "doing this in God's name" type of action rather than heavenly intervention, which is as you say, different.

Yeah, I know. I just wanted to shoe-horn my favourite Nick Cave lyric into this thread!

 

[daveinprague]

No they are not. Humans are.

We find reasons for conflict. Different colour, different religion, different nationality etc etc. ANYTHING that differentiates from others. You could argue Geography is the reasoning behind more wars. Is Geography so terrible?

This is the usual answer...... its humans...not god.... I think its a bit of a cop out....people are using religion for war, and have done before even the biblical age...its that simple really.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

It’s not really down to belief though is it – more about when and where you were born. If you were born in Mexico in the first century BCE you worshipped Quetzalcoatl, if you were born in Saudi Arabia today you would be a Muslim. No different to which soccer team you support if you think about it.

And the reason they worship that particular god is their parents told them to (there is no personal choice involved) – it’s called indoctrination, without it most major religions would fold within a few generations. (All the major religions know this, they just won’t admit it)

I don’t understand why this is so difficult for people to grasp.

 

[daveinprague]

Its called brainwashing.

 

[Buzzer]

This is the usual answer...... its humans...not god.... I think its a bit of a cop out....people are using religion for war, and have done before even the biblical age...its that simple really.

No different from saying that peopel have used socialism to kill hundreds of millions of people. Using your logic, people should give up on socialism too (I'd be quite happy with that - as it goes).

 

[sydney]

I was talking about spirituality, it's in my words.

religious people need to let go of history to regain their spirituality brother.....the fundi muslims are still trying to avenge the crusades......back on subject , i can see humans evolving into 250 kilo + toad like creatures with a tablet like device in place of the left hand.........the ones who channel their energy towards manufacturing decent drugs will be so lithe and fit that the toadies wont be able to catch them.

 

[daveinprague]

All sorts of groups have used their 'ideal' for wars Buzzer, but I believe 'religious' wars win the race.

Christians keep asking why dont you believe...why do you dismiss....well, for me...because theres no evidence...at all.....
Some heresay here and there...but no actual evidence of anything...

People are brainwashed into their religions around the world from birth... and thats all it is..brainwashing.

 

[One Love]

It’s not really down to belief though is it – more about when and where you were born. If you were born in Mexico in the first century BCE you worshipped Quetzalcoatl, if you were born in Saudi Arabia today you would be a Muslim. No different to which soccer team you support if you think about it.

And the reason they worship that particular god is their parents told them to (there is no personal choice involved) – it’s called indoctrination, without it most major religions would fold within a few generations. (All the major religions know this, they just won’t admit it)

I don’t understand why this is so difficult for people to grasp.

That's all well and good if you follow the religion of where you born and for those reasons but not everyone does.

 

[symyjym]

Religion, and its various 'churches' are the cause of more deaths on this planet than probably anything else.

Agree, it always seems to be a "my God/belief is better than your God/belief" and blood will be spilt to impose it.

Mankind is always trying to do Gods work. I was shocked when George Bush said "God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq", and although the Pope asked to refrain from going to war he stopped short of saying "God did not talk to Bush as he would have never said such a thing."

The Pope didn't have the balls to tell him he was wrong.

Even Blair uses the God is on his side excuse.

Whilst I believe in the moral fibers part of religion as a good person Highway Code book, it is easily hijacked for personal gain and advantage. If there was a God he wouldn't be happy with the way name is being used.

 

[Buzzer]

All sorts of groups have used their 'ideal' for wars Buzzer, but I believe 'religious' wars win the race.

So..are you advocating getting rid of both ideals? Seems a bit unfair for you not to want to get rid of socialism because it's 'only' killed 200 million or whatever it is compared to 300 million or whatever it is for religion. The world would be a better place without 2 clearly flawed belief systems, right?

 

[daveinprague]

I come from a fairly 'religious' background...and spent 20 odd years in a reggae soundsystem talking to rastas...
They believe that Selassie, is from an unbroken line going back to Solomon, and the Queen of Sheba, and Selassie was Christ returned to earth... ok...I dont believe that myself,
but its no more daft than the Christian religion as a whole as far as im concerned.

 

[One Love]

If there was a God he would be he wouldn't be happy with the way name is being used.

Absolutely