Evolution debate.

[daveinprague]

Something about the universe on history channel now....strangely in prague...

 

[beorhthelm]

It is impossible to know whether God exists or not - those who claim to know otherwise, whether it's the gnostic atheists or the gnostic theists, are either deluded or lying.

but this isnt true. "God", is clearly a noun, a thing and as such must have defining attributes. once you determine those attributes, you can know whether or not it exists. obviously with some vauge and open-end attributes you can construct a definition that defies knowledge (but opens you up to the problem what exactly is it that you believe in). that is to say, it is possible for a given definition of God to not know if it exists, however it *is possible* for another definition of God to be knowable or not. Theology has taken quite alot of time and study over the years to define "God", the product is typically something that i know doesnt exist, because there is evidence to the contrary. if you start with your own, personal definition of God, this is of course not necessarily the case.

or in short, stop using "God" and use "god(s)" unless you want to bring along a lot of assumption.

 

[symyjym]

Something about the universe on history channel now....strangely in prague...

Rosicrucian's have an interesting angle and base their belief on Christianity before the Romans hijacked it for themselves. Catholicism believe that God became man through Jesus but Rosicrucian’s believe that man/Jesus became God, and anyone can become God, rather than needing a Pope or figurehead to act as a go between.

Something like that anyway

 

[One Love]

Rosicrucian's have an interesting angle and base their belief on Christianity before the Romans hijacked it for themselves. Catholicism believe that God became man through Jesus but Rosicrucian’s believe that man/Jesus became God, and anyone can become God, rather than needing a Pope or figurehead to act as a go between.

Something like that anyway

When I started on my search for making sense out of it all I tinkered around with various different societies and such-like, one of which was the Rosicrucians.

There was quite a bit of ceremony which didn't sit right with me but quite near the beginning I was told that something would happen if I meditated at this particular time. Well it did and it was shockingly strange. I searched similar experiences on the internet afterwards and people claimed it could happen. Let's just say it was a psychic experience.

It didn't feel right for me so I didn't proceed with my "studies".

 

[symyjym]

When I started on my search for making sense out of it all I tinkered around with various different societies and such-like, one of which was the Rosicrucians.

There was quite a bit of ceremony which didn't sit right with me but quite near the beginning I was told that something would happen if I meditated at this particular time. Well it did and it was shockingly strange. I searched similar experiences on the internet afterwards and people claimed it could happen. Let's just say it was a psychic experience.

It didn't feel right for me so I didn't proceed with my "studies".

Can you expand on the psychic experience? I know meditating can induce the feeling of out of body experiences and euphoria.

 

[One Love]

Well this was something I had never experienced before and haven't since and was completely unexpected. A screen, like looking at a tv, opened up in my mind and a man (I imagine my rosicrucian teacher coming to say hello) appeared in the screen and started floating towards me. I didn't like the feel of it at all and didn't welcome it so the screen then disappeared.

Believe you me I questioned this experience myself afterwards but I know it happened and when I did a bit of research it seems it is something that can happen to you.

 

[Gullys Cats]

hey hey we're the monkees!

 

[symyjym]

Well this was something I had never experienced before and haven't since and was completely unexpected. A screen, like looking at a tv, opened up in my mind and a man (I imagine my rosicrucian teacher coming to say hello) appeared in the screen and started floating towards me. I didn't like the feel of it at all and didn't welcome it so the screen then disappeared.

Believe you me I questioned this experience myself afterwards but I know it happened and when I did a bit of research it seems it is something that can happen to you.

I've always explained weird things that have happened to me as an overactive imagination even though some things can feel real. I used to get sleep paralysis on a regular basis where I couldn’t move, speak or scream. It felt like there was some entity with me in the room and you feel yourself detaching from your body, a bit like a tug of war with your soul. Scary at the time but knowing more about it I learnt not to fight it and go back to sleep.

Another time I put myself into a altered state, when I went to a meditating class as a curious teenager, and I had an experience of floating out of myself and I had to pull myself back because I was unsure of what was going on.

As I said I feel these experiences are our minds playing tricks.

 

[Ravids]

Jesus is alive in all of us.

The world is 6,000 years old, to think otherwise is just plain stupidity.

Do you not think scientists lie to us?

 

[Brightonfan1983]

There is only one god. And here he is, talking brilliantly, about The Theory of Evolution. Well worth ten minutes of your time, if you haven't seen this David Attenborough programme before.

http://www.wimp.com/darwinevolution/

 

[symyjym]

There is only one god. And here he is, talking brilliantly, about The Theory of Evolution. Well worth ten minutes of your time, if you haven't seen this David Attenborough programme before.

http://www.wimp.com/darwinevolution/

Yep, David Attenborough has a qualified and rational opinion in my view.

 

[dangull]

It is worth noting that whenever you see or hear scientists talk about cosmology, there is an acceptance of simply 'not knowing' what went before. The theory of the big bang is commonly thought of as 'the creation of the universe', however this is really incorrect, as it is a theory that explains the origin of our 'known' universe as we currently observe it. It is merely a point at which our known scientific discovery and theory can get us back to. Beyond the big bang is the unknown, not nothing.

The singularity prior to the big bang is some crazy quantum mechanical relativity science that has various theories, but the concept of 'nothing' doesn't exist, there is in essence always something, even if we don't understand what that is.

I think creationists jump at the Big Bang theory as an opportunity to ask who created the singularity. Science doesn't have the answers to that question, but that in turn doesn't support the conclusion that something created it.

I agree with your point to [MENTION=1313]BadFish[/MENTION] that there is no way of using science to argue against religion. Religion is a belief system that does not require empirical experience or evidence. Science will eternally never know all the answers. There can always be the question laid at its feet of 'what came before', or 'what created the start of that'.

This can be true of evolution. The absence of knowledge of what binded the cells in the primordial soup is not a justification for intelligent design, it's just that we don't know. Again, the absence knowledge can never be the explanation for something.

Only evidence supports science, hence why scientific theories and laws are disproved with welcoming joy and excitement of a new discovery. When Einstein proved Newton incorrect in his explanation of the universe, there was a seismic shift and science adapted and simply rewrote it's text books. The Higgs Boson came along and actually helped prove the hole Einstein knew was in his Theory of Relativity all along. These are exciting discoveries in a journey of discovery. Ultimately you have a belief in a theory because it makes sense, however that belief is not absolute and unchallengeable. It's a belief that has nothing to do with faith.

So in essence, the theory of the big bang is not a belief that there was nothing, then suddenly a bang, the universe expanded and then there was life. It's a theory that says all this that we can see started at a single point. What went before we don't really know, but conceptually it is not a theory of creation, it is merely a point in time that we can establish.

I'm agreeing with you by the way (at least I think I am...) in that science can never be used as an absolute tool to disprove religion. It simply can't because 95% of life the universe and everything we simply don't understand, therefore science has to perhaps philosophically at least accept that one day a deity maybe proved or discovered. A true atheist to my mind is not someone who blindly believes they will always be an atheist, they are simply an atheist in the absence of sufficient proof of a God.

.......

Oh my, just as I'm typing this 2 Jehovah Witnesses have knocked on the door. Brilliant timing. In the end they had to make their excuses to leave! I was quite prepared to make them a cup of tea and go through my thoughts on life, death the universe and everything, but they have more doors to knock on and get going. They were very sweet and looking forward to their resurrection which is nice for them.

A very intellegent post. I cant imagine you turning up to an Albion game yelling the refs A yanker ?

 

[drew]

Isn't the point at the end of the day whether you believe that when you die you or your 'soul' goes onto other things and/or that there is some force, known by some as God, that makes conscious decisions about your fate every second of every day. Life after death and prayer seem to be the two main points of a religion. Everything else is just window dressing.

Personally, I don't believe in either, and place my faith in science although I accept that science doesn't yet have all the answers, and may never have them all. However, I see religion as a method by which intelligent people long long ago could wrestle control and power from those that merely had that power due to their strength. That is, the strongest were in control because they didn't fear those beneath them but then some clever sod comes up with a theory about how everything got here and throws in that you should live in fear of whatever force created it. The strong guy says why should I fear this when I'm already created (perhaps not quite in those words) and the clever guy chips in because if you don't fear/worship (you chose which word to delete) then when you die you won't go to this fantastic other world!!! The balance of power switches.

 

[Triggaaar]

Separate from this wonderful thread, my 7 year old daughter asked us last night, 'was my great great great great great great great great great great ... (she went on for a considerable time, and I wasn't counting) great grandma a monkey?'

Yes I said, but it was more greats than that.

 

[turienzo's lovechild]

But the vast majority do - strange how you never get any Catholics born to the Mr. and Mrs. Goldbergs of this world

I know a christian with the surname Goldman- does that count? In fact Nicky Gumbel, leader of HTB (CofE) church in London and inventor of the alpha course is Jewish

I know/know of christians from saudi arabia, sri lanka, pakistan, iraq, china- all sorts


it might be different elsewhere but of the christians i know, not far off 50% and possibly more weren't from christian households- myself included

 

[BadFish]

It's not really relevant but a part of me thinks we could possibly be the only living things in the universe. The sheer chance of life existing on earth seems so slim that it's entirely plausible we're the only ones. I've heard very well-respected astrophysicists arguing this case. On the other hand there could be intelligent life elsewhere but the distances involved and the technology required suggests that if they'd visited once then they would have left a bigger mark and visited more often and more visibly. What would they have to fear with all that technology at their disposal?

I haven't got the foggiest about intelligent life elsewhere but I sincerely doubt in the lifetime of the earth that we have been or ever will be visited by aliens and if they did then it comes down to concepts/technologies that are way beyond the human ability to understand or recreate. And if that's the case it's futile even trying to explain.

And to bring this full circle - that's what I think about the origins of the universe, the truth is far beyond human comprehension which is why the science v creation debate will never be resolved.

The inference here seems to be that humans will never resolve this discussion. Is this what you think? I would like to think that we still have a long way to go in our evolution and that we are improving our understanding all the time. I feel optimistic that at some point we will discover and understand many of the questions which currently elude us. Unless we end up consuming or destroying our resources and killing ourselves (this is another discussion though).

 

[Brightonfan1983]

Yep, David Attenborough has a qualified and rational opinion in my view.

Ok I get your sarcasm, but I don't see anything in those videos that isn't rational. All he is saying, and indeed what science does, is look at the evidence. I'm not dismissing religious views in any sense; like he says, all civilisations need an explanation for how we got here, and I don't think I've heard a better "putting a case forward" for that side of the debate. Certainly religious leaders do the same and both are as attractive. I'm just not a fan of black or white - there's more grey in this than meets the eye IMO.

 

[seagullmouse]

I watched it all yesterday. A bit painful really.

Does anyone ever change their mind about this kind of thing? Seems to me that once people have decided their beliefs on something so fundamental it means too much to them to change their mind. So 'debates' like this are like listening to politicians: saying prepared soundbites and not really ever debating a point.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Isn't the point at the end of the day whether you believe that when you die you or your 'soul' goes onto other things and/or that there is some force, known by some as God, that makes conscious decisions about your fate every second of every day. Life after death and prayer seem to be the two main points of a religion. Everything else is just window dressing.

Personally, I don't believe in either, and place my faith in science although I accept that science doesn't yet have all the answers, and may never have them all. However, I see religion as a method by which intelligent people long long ago could wrestle control and power from those that merely had that power due to their strength. That is, the strongest were in control because they didn't fear those beneath them but then some clever sod comes up with a theory about how everything got here and throws in that you should live in fear of whatever force created it. The strong guy says why should I fear this when I'm already created (perhaps not quite in those words) and the clever guy chips in because if you don't fear/worship (you chose which word to delete) then when you die you won't go to this fantastic other world!!! The balance of power switches.

I hate it when people start a discourse with the words "as a Christian", because it often means they are going to come out with a stream of self-righteous poppycock.

But..... as a Christian, and in response to your two points, I would say that:
1. I am not sure what will happen to me after my death. The promise of eternal life is certainly not the only, or even the main reason, or perhaps any part of the reason why I am a believer. I am much more interested in the moral, ethical and human(e) side of it, about how you should live your life, about how to treat people etc etc.
2. I don't believe in pre-destination, or that God has got it all mapped out in advance. Like many (most?) others, I believe in free will.

And for what it is worth, going back to the original question, I am not a scientist but I totally accept the arguments for evolution.

PS -and I am not trying to pick a fight.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I watched it all yesterday. A bit painful really.

Does anyone ever change their mind about this kind of thing? Seems to me that once people have decided their beliefs on something so fundamental it means too much to them to change their mind. So 'debates' like this are like listening to politicians: saying prepared soundbites and not really ever debating a point.

People are always changing their minds. Jonathan Edwards was a devout Christian who wouldn't compete on Sundays at one point. He is now an atheist who said "I feel internally happier than at any time of my life."

There are then of course many atheists who 'find' religion with similar quotes about how they are much better for it.