Evolution debate.

[seagullmouse]

People are always changing their minds. Jonathan Edwards was a devout Christian who wouldn't compete on Sundays at one point. He is now an atheist who said "I feel internally happier than at any time of my life."

There are then of course many atheists who 'find' religion with similar quotes about how they are much better for it.

I think these people are the exception rather than the rule. When thinking of examples I came up with Jonathan Edwards too, i.e. they aren't that many.

How many people who attended the debate do you think will have changed their minds?

There may be some people who are on the fence that it could work for but otherwise people just hear the bits they want to hear and ignore the rest. People don't like their worldview being undermined/criticised and will go to great lengths to defend it.

Try debating a crazy christian/Moomin (sic) who knocks at your door. You might feel a little empowered to do it but you aren't really debating. Just both saying what makes you feel comfortable and ignoring what doesn't. I guess we've evolved this way, to filter out what we don't want to hear!

 

[Seagull kimchi]

I've had profoundly spiritual experiences (observing nature,during meditation, under the influence of mushrooms and DMT) that have left me with a real hope of an alternative, out of body, energy plane of existence after death. However I am utterly bewildered by the dogmatic "we are right - all else is wrong" edict of most organised religions. Any organisations that claim to know The Truth are blatantly lying and therefore must have an agenda in my eyes.

 

[symyjym]

Ok I get your sarcasm, but I don't see anything in those videos that isn't rational. All he is saying, and indeed what science does, is look at the evidence. I'm not dismissing religious views in any sense; like he says, all civilisations need an explanation for how we got here, and I don't think I've heard a better "putting a case forward" for that side of the debate. Certainly religious leaders do the same and both are as attractive. I'm just not a fan of black or white - there's more grey in this than meets the eye IMO.

I wasn't being sarcastic, he is the greatest teacher of life in the world and I have the greatest of respect for him

 

[symyjym]

Separate from this wonderful thread, my 7 year old daughter asked us last night, 'was my great great great great great great great great great great ... (she went on for a considerable time, and I wasn't counting) great grandma a monkey?'

Yes I said, but it was more greats than that.

I remember telling my daughter at around 7 that monkeys were related to us. She was climbing on the furniture and jumping from one to the other at the time whilst giving me a puzzled look. Evolution is quite a hard thing to understand at that age.

 

[Triggaaar]

Evolution is quite a hard thing to understand at that age.

Ken Ham is considerably older, and he's got his mind in a complete muddle.

 

[pastafarian]

but suffice to say that if I wasn't open minded, I would still be atheist.

 

[Baldseagull]

People are always changing their minds. Jonathan Edwards was a devout Christian who wouldn't compete on Sundays at one point. He is now an atheist who said "I feel internally happier than at any time of my life."

There are then of course many atheists who 'find' religion with similar quotes about how they are much better for it.

I remember Frankie Boyle saying, "God doesn't seem bothered with famine in Africa but according to some people, he is highly interested in the Olympic triple jump result" or something like that.

 

[dangull]

If you live your life believing there maybe an after life, then you may feel hope and content whatever problems you have in life, and if your wrong it won't matter. However, if you are an athiest and when you die, you turn out to be wrong, then that could be problem if that happens.

 

[seagullmouse]

If you live your life believing there maybe an after life, then you may feel hope and content whatever problems you have in life, and if your wrong it won't matter. However, if you are an athiest and when you die, you turn out to be wrong, then that could be problem if that happens.

Surely same problem if you believe in one of very many wrong religions wrong religions?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

Using the estimate of 4200 world religions.

Working out the maths:

If you are religious: If there is a 'correct religion', your chance of choosing that correct religion
1/4200 = 0.03% chance

If you are not religious: If there is a 'correct religion', your chance of choosing that correct religion
= 0.00% chance

0.03% difference. I suppose you could just pick a random religion and go with that one, but I don't think its really worth it for a 0.03% increased chance of avoiding a hypothetical eternal damnation.

 

[symyjym]

If you live your life believing there maybe an after life, then you may feel hope and content whatever problems you have in life, and if your wrong it won't matter. However, if you are an athiest and when you die, you turn out to be wrong, then that could be problem if that happens.

Sounds like a threat to me?

 

[dangull]

Surely same problem if you believe in the wrong one of 21 (ish) main religions or 4200 world religions? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

Religous schollars would say the worlds major religions believe in the same God but worhip him/it in slightly different ways.

 

[seagullmouse]

Religous schollars would say the worlds major religions believe in the same God but worhip him/it in slightly different ways.

Updated my above comment with some maths

 

[dangull]

I'm not threatening anyone, just stating a view that some people have.

 

[Buzzer]

Sounds like a threat to me?

Nah, nothing of the sort. BTW - it's called Pascal's wager.

 

[Professor P]

I have had neither the time nor energy to read all through this thread but OUR LORD has and he's going to be might fcked off with a lot of you atheist shithouses

 

[Gilliver's Travels]

I hate it when people start a discourse with the words "as a Christian", because it often means they are going to come out with a stream of self-righteous poppycock.

But..... as a Christian, and in response to your two points, I would say that:
1. I am not sure what will happen to me after my death. The promise of eternal life is certainly not the only, or even the main reason, or perhaps any part of the reason why I am a believer. I am much more interested in the moral, ethical and human(e) side of it, about how you should live your life, about how to treat people etc etc.
2. I don't believe in pre-destination, or that God has got it all mapped out in advance. Like many (most?) others, I believe in free will.

And for what it is worth, going back to the original question, I am not a scientist but I totally accept the arguments for evolution.

PS -and I am not trying to pick a fight.

David, you always sound far too decent a bloke to be a Christian.

Go on... Come on over to the dark side.

 

[Arthritic Toe]

If you live your life believing there maybe an after life, then you may feel hope and content whatever problems you have in life, and if your wrong it won't matter. However, if you are an athiest and when you die, you turn out to be wrong, then that could be problem if that happens.

The problem with this is that you cant really choose what you believe in - surely you either believe something or you don't.

 

[Fungus]

I have had neither the time nor energy to read all through this thread but OUR LORD has and he's going to be might fcked off with a lot of you atheist shithouses

Good, there's no point being an atheist if you can't upset God.

 

[dangull]

The problem with this is that you cant really choose what you believe in - surely you either believe something or you don't.

I would say it's logical to beleive just incase, and for other many other reasons. However there is many levels of how much a believer you are.

 

[Baldseagull]

2. I don't believe in pre-destination, or that God has got it all mapped out in advance. Like many (most?) others, I believe in free will.

And for what it is worth, going back to the original question, I am not a scientist but I totally accept the arguments for evolution.

PS -and I am not trying to pick a fight.

I think if you believe in free will, you have to believe in a God. Science is cause and effect, whilst it is not possible to calculate everything that is ever going to happen anywhere, science would have everything predestined at the moment of the big bang, if you think about it. We think we make free choices but we choose the way choose to act because of the genetics we have, the chemical balance in our body's from the things we ingest and past experience.