Europe!

[GoldWithFalmer]

Let some big names fold if needed,let there be casualties and lets get back to basics-and go for the positive,positive,positive.

to me it seems like a natural law seems to be re dressing balance in our society-after all if footballers can earn £100,000 per week and a nurse £40,000 a year then we have our answer.

 

[beorhthelm]

Because they don't know what to do now.

true, which has been the problem the whole way through.

couple of points in that post though. the banks didnt buy lots of bonds to profit massively, noone profits massivly on bonds/debt (unless you buy distressed debt that turns out to be safe). alot of the soveriegn debt is brought by pensions and sovereign funds because its safe. alot is brought by eurozone banks because they are required to hold euro denominated AAA rated assets, so brought whatever was on offer (so much for regulation). relativly our banks are not so heavily exposed as say the French banks (though we are indirectly by lending to those that are exposed...)

i havent seen anything about the UK debt being 1000% of GDP, as i recall we actually have a net credit nationally - theres alot of savings, equity, pensions, assets. our ability to print money does set us apart from the rest of the storm, but the fact we have already decided to fix our debt problems (even if they dont really get fixed) has made us look safe compared to those ignoring the situation. also, historically the UK has never defaulted, which counts for something.

 

[Chicken Runner61]

true, which has been the problem the whole way through.

couple of points in that post though. the banks didnt buy lots of bonds to profit massively, noone profits massivly on bonds/debt (unless you buy distressed debt that turns out to be safe). alot of the soveriegn debt is brought by pensions and sovereign funds because its safe. alot is brought by eurozone banks because they are required to hold euro denominated AAA rated assets, so brought whatever was on offer (so much for regulation). relativly our banks are not so heavily exposed as say the French banks (though we are indirectly by lending to those that are exposed...)

i havent seen anything about the UK debt being 1000% of GDP, as i recall we actually have a net credit nationally - theres alot of savings, equity, pensions, assets. our ability to print money does set us apart from the rest of the storm, but the fact we have already decided to fix our debt problems (even if they dont really get fixed) has made us look safe compared to those ignoring the situation. also, historically the UK has never defaulted, which counts for something.

The 1000% debt refers to our debt overall not just Sovereign (bond debts).

Our banks underestimated how bad the crisis would be and were/are waiting for the ECB to jump in and save the Euro. If they didn't think they would do well out of it why did they buy it when according to Osbourne etc we are not obliged to bail out Europe now?

Thats the key (I suspect) The ECB bank MUST come in as the lender of last resort - thats if they actually have the Euros/gold to do so, if not they will have to get the printing presses out and thats what Merkle and the rest wanted to avoid.

 

[cunning fergus]

Again I don't disagree with much of that (if any) but the bit about Cameron that gripes me is that he is basing his decision on what to do from a political position - It isn't a political crisis yet, its a financial one, and its a national, European and Global one at that and that is what any decision should be centred around not the internal politics of the Tories.

Of course Milliband is trying to make political capital - thats his job constructive or not he's not the one making the decision about our country's economic future.

These are the facts about the UK Economy

Manufacturing is now only 10% of the Uk economy Just after WW2 it was 40%
The services industry is about 75%
For 10 years up to 2003 our energy consumption was fairly stable now we are a net importer
6.8 million people worked in Manufacturing when Thatcher came to office in 1979 - now its 2.5 million
Last year we bought £97 billion more in goods from other countries than we sold for export.
In 1983 there were 170 working coalmines in 2009 there were 4

The finance industry is f***ed - we no longer have manufacturing to support it.


Sarcozy wants France to become a finance centre, its a good call for him to have a go at the Uk and will be good for the french elections on the horizon. Cameron may just have given him a helping hand in shifting the finance sectors to France if the other 26 fall in line with France and Germany

CR, if you agree with my post then you agree that Cameron had no choice but to exercise the veto.

It is an irony that by doing so it appears to be a sop to the eurosceptics in his party but the alternative is a referendum in the UK. If we run a referendum now it will be a resounding "out". The politicians know this and that is why europhile Clegg agreed with Cameron's position.

The evidence is that Cameron likes to be seen to be the Eurosceptic but his actions to date have frankly been anything but. no doubt this "story" would have less copy in fleet street or Salford.

The problem with the euro has always been political, and that's its inherent weakness. The financial solution to the crisis is easy............the germans pay. The problem with the financial solution is political the german electorate won't wear it. Merkel may be more accomodating once she's been elected again........not now though.

Similarly I think Cameron, Clegg or Miliband would have happily signed us up for the new framework if they had carte blanche to do so.......but they know the electorate would be incandescent if our budget needed to be signed off by the Germans. It is additonal irony that this crisis was not forseen when the legislation was changed to so that a referendum would happen if there was any addition transfer of powers to Brussels.

The Lisbon Treaty was effectively the final peice of the legislative puzzle that the EU needed to define itself as a political entity and all the UK politicians knew it. Now it needs either an amendment or a new treaty the UK Govt is going to be hoisted by its own petard. It's f***ing delicious isn't it?

In the meantime of course Miliband can make political capital, but he insults the more intelligent members of electorate by doing so........he is obviously seeking to develop his approval ratings with the X Factor and IACGMOOH consitituencies.

 

[Westdene Wonder]

I am not a political animal but am clear that we entered a purely trading arrangement with Europe and we decided to keep our own currency and did not want to ruled by Europe.
Germany & France decided to include as many countries as possible with little regard to what they would bring to the gathering, the situation is worsening and we are well out of it, with the
plus of not having to pay the millions of pounds daily to belong.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Seems the penny is beginning to drop, even for the Thatcherites...

John Kerr, the former UK permanent representative to the EU, said that even under Margaret Thatcher the country had been at the heart of negotiations over Europe. He said: "I am very puzzled that we chose to pick up the ball and leave the pitch before the game started. I'm very uneasy because I'm very worried about the empty chair."

 

[Chicken Runner61]

I am not a political animal but am clear that we entered a purely trading arrangement with Europe and we decided to keep our own currency and did not want to ruled by Europe.
Germany & France decided to include as many countries as possible with little regard to what they would bring to the gathering, the situation is worsening and we are well out of it, with the
plus of not having to pay the millions of pounds daily to belong.

We are not "out of it" Europe is a bit like the Hotel California "You can check out but you will never leave"