Demo in Brighton yesterday

[Stoo82]

What about people who sell their house at lower than 250K just to avoid paying a higher tax rate?

 

[Stoo82]

What about people who see "Pay no Tax" on products and buy them becuase of that. (I know they still pay tax, but its the princeple)

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The use of offshore accounts, 'dividend payments' to spouses and all the specialist methods used by such institutions (which are by their very nature so labyrinthine that most of us don't understand them fully - part of their appeal to those who use them) These companies already make ridiculous amounts of money. If they paid tax like the rest of us have to they'd STILL make ridiculous amounts of money. But they have access to financial specialists whose entire professional lives are spent working out ways by which people who are already very rich can contribute as little as possible to the public purse. That is WRONG. All tax loopholes should be closed. If the Government spent as much time and specialist resources targeting the very rich as they do the very poor, the public finances would be in a far healthier state - but they won't, because all mainstream political parties rely on the patronage of such people, the mass media is owned by them too, and we all know that the number one rule for any politician who wishes to remain so is 'don't upset Mr. Murdoch..'

It's all very well wishing for this utopian world where all the businesses will pay their tax but it makes no account for varying tax regimes around the world. For example I'm sure if Vodaphone were to get too heavily taxed it would just lift its main operations to Ireland where corporation tax is so much lower. We'd then lose thousands of jobs thus pushing up the welfare bill. Sometimes it pays not to cut off your nose to spite your face. Often the very same people who complain about the tax avoidance and the very same people who complain when companies move their operations off shore to places like India.

 

[binky]

Absolutely. I really cannot understand why some people, who obviously work and pay their fair whack, are quite happy to be ripped off by these corporations. It is a scandal that they are allowed to get away with it. .

Dont get me wrong, or misinterpret my comments. I get incenced at being ripped of whether it be by individuals or by corporations. I am trying to draw attention to the fact that all of this inchoate rage against tax avoidance is misplaced. If you are going to protest, then you need to have a pretty good idea about what kind of "avoidance" you are unhappy with.

I've been in paid employment for the last 23years and paid up every penny of tax that I owe, I do not think it unreasonable to expect others to do the same.

So you have never avoided any tax like in the examples I gave above?
Never bought anything while abroad?
Never bought something from ebay originating outside the UK?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

What about people who sell their house at lower than 250K just to avoid paying a higher tax rate?

Opps - I purposely purchased a property at below the asking price to avoid higher stamp duty - naughty me

 

[Stoo82]

Opps - I purposely purchased a property at below the asking price to avoid higher stamp duty - naughty me

 

[Westdene Seagull]

What about people who see "Pay no Tax" on products and buy them becuase of that. (I know they still pay tax, but its the princeple)

Or people who catch a booze cruise to Calais to avoid paying tax here.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

What about people who see "Pay no Tax" on products and buy them becuase of that. (I know they still pay tax, but its the princeple)

Or people that pay the tax when they place a bet to avoid paying tax on the winnings ( assuming they're not following a US tip of course ) ?

 

[Stoo82]

Or when buying a car 2nd hand from a member of th public. Even though its not a legal requirement they pay no tax on it.

 

[binky]

The use of offshore accounts,

A multinational company must surely have accounts in more than one country by it's very nature?

'dividend payments' to spouses

Should a spouse be treated differently to any other shareholder who recieves a dividend?

and all the specialist methods used by such institutions (which are by their very nature so labyrinthine that most of us don't understand them fully - part of their appeal to those who use them) These companies already make ridiculous amounts of money.

So how much money should a company be "allowed" to make, before it becomes "ridiculous"?
Who decides?

If they paid tax like the rest of us have to

They do pay tax like the rest of us, werll not exactly like the rest if us because thay are companies, which necessarily operate under a different tax regime. Rest assured that any company which evades tax is targetted by the revenue.

they'd STILL make ridiculous amounts of money. But they have access to financial specialists whose entire professional lives are spent working out ways by which people who are already very rich can contribute as little as possible to the public purse. That is WRONG.

I sympathise I really do. I also have a gut feeling that there are some things wrong with the way western capitalism is organised.
But I can see the end of the road which you propose to travel, and it looks like Soviet Russia.
Come up with some workable proposals, which will be operable in a globalised economy, and I'll start listening.
Just saying it's WRONG, and emoting all over the place isn't helpful.

All tax loopholes should be closed. If the Government spent as much time and specialist resources targeting the very rich as they do the very poor,

I'm not sure I understand this. It seems to be some kind of accepted truism that the Government hate the poor and are targeting them for special treatment.
Maybe I'm blind, or maybe I simply don't see things the same way, but I cant see the evidence that our elected representatives are meting out special punishments for people with less money than... well what? Who are the poor? Is there a cuttoff point at which the Government become all lovey dovey and accepting. £15k a year? £40K?

the public finances would be in a far healthier state - but they won't, because all mainstream political parties rely on the patronage of such people, the mass media is owned by them too, and we all know that the number one rule for any politician who wishes to remain so is 'don't upset Mr. Murdoch..'

<sigh>

 

[Dave the OAP]

yep, it does.

and people who buy goods off "jim in the pub"? Or download films and tracks from P2P sites?

 

[beorhthelm]

All tax loopholes should be closed.

yes, that would be great idea, but it seems consecutive government aren't too worried about it, often making the loopholes with thier labyrinthine tax system. all the time they exist, surely its anyones right to use the system and its nuances, nooks and cranies as they can? it doesnt take a specialist tax accountant to setup an offshore account, its a relativly cheap option that anyone can take advantage of for the sake of a bit of paperwork. many self-employed and contractors do so.

 

[Jimbo.GRFC]

It's all very well wishing for this utopian world where all the businesses will pay their tax but it makes no account for varying tax regimes around the world. For example I'm sure if Vodaphone were to get too heavily taxed it would just lift its main operations to Ireland where corporation tax is so much lower. We'd then lose thousands of jobs thus pushing up the welfare bill. Sometimes it pays not to cut off your nose to spite your face. Often the very same people who complain about the tax avoidance and the very same people who complain when companies move their operations off shore to places like India.

Its already been happening....Ireland have used this for quite some time now though not now and are reaping the repercussions. Or more so, we are.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Its already been happening....Ireland have used this for quite some time now though not now and are reaping the repercussions. Or more so, we are.

Cheapest is not always best though. A number of companies (Virgin for one) have just moved a chunk of their off-shore call centres back to the UK.

 

[The Spanish]

Cheapest is not always best though. A number of companies (Virgin for one) have just moved a chunk of their off-shore call centres back to the UK.

why?

 

[binky]

Or people who catch a booze cruise to Calais to avoid paying tax here.

So this being just one of the myriad of examples posted of tax avoidance in daily use, what is it again that the protesters are against?

Or is it the amounts involved which is the problem? If so, then what is the cutoff point? If it is OK to avoid £10 duty on a bottle of vodka, why is it not OK to avoid £200 Million on a company dividend? Where in between those two extremes is the point at which acceptable avoidance becomes unacceptable avoidance?

Is it just the case that the protesters are protesting because someone has more money than they do?

 

[Jimbo.GRFC]

A multinational company must surely have accounts in more than one country by it's very nature?


Should a spouse be treated differently to any other shareholder who recieves a dividend?



So how much money should a company be "allowed" to make, before it becomes "ridiculous"?
Who decides?



They do pay tax like the rest of us, werll not exactly like the rest if us because thay are companies, which necessarily operate under a different tax regime. Rest assured that any company which evades tax is targetted by the revenue.



I sympathise I really do. I also have a gut feeling that there are some things wrong with the way western capitalism is organised.
But I can see the end of the road which you propose to travel, and it looks like Soviet Russia.
Come up with some workable proposals, which will be operable in a globalised economy, and I'll start listening.
Just saying it's WRONG, and emoting all over the place isn't helpful.




I'm not sure I understand this. It seems to be some kind of accepted truism that the Government hate the poor and are targeting them for special treatment.
Maybe I'm blind, or maybe I simply don't see things the same way, but I cant see the evidence that our elected representatives are meting out special punishments for people with less money than... well what? Who are the poor? Is there a cuttoff point at which the Government become all lovey dovey and accepting. £15k a year? £40K?



<sigh>

they'd STILL make ridiculous amounts of money. But they have access to financial specialists whose entire professional lives are spent working out ways by which people who are already very rich can contribute as little as possible to the public purse. That is WRONG.

Attila - One of your comments is a very valid one that caught my eye

That's why we have these multinational accountancy and legal practices. Money is shifted from shore to shore, country to country. Always has and always will be. I've always maintained throughout this thread that I agree that taxation should be just and also fair for all. Hound them too much and as has been said before they'll just up ship and go. More high streets with empty stores mmmmmm..The whole point from my starting of this thread is that I took my son into town on a Saturday without any prior knowledge of this protest. I'm told in response by some dick to man my son up..clearly has no kids and question if he has a wife as he claims. Let us know about these demo's then we can make our own decisions whether we go into town or not, and as for the other poster who said that your child could be knocked over on a normal Saturday shopping, well thats an informed decision as a parent we take. We dont however expect screaming protesters, police with dogs, sirens etc etc. The rogues gallery in the centre pages includes a man ftom Oxford, Braintree and so on. Are there no McDonalds, Topshops, Vodafone, banks etc nearer to where they live. Hold your protests there

 

[Jimbo.GRFC]

Cheapest is not always best though. A number of companies (Virgin for one) have just moved a chunk of their off-shore call centres back to the UK.

I don't believe this but Herr I for once agree with you. There is nothing more frustrating than being put through to Indian call centre's and whilst they might know English don't quite grasp what we are asking. I would love to sit in on a call from a Geordie for example.

The problem we have or potentially have is that people in the UK aren't really prepared to take these jobs on, though maybe as the following months go on they may well reconsider this

 

[binky]

IThe problem we have or potentially have is that people in the UK aren't really prepared to take these jobs on, though maybe as the following months go on they may well reconsider this

Sadly, this isn't the case though. Your quote is specifically about call center workers, but it runs the whole gamut of service work.

Take any large multinational. In recent years it will have moved call centers offshore, and made UK staff redundant, moved IT services offshore, and made UK staff redundant, moved accountancy functions offshore and made the UK staff redundant. In all of these cases, there were more than enough people prepared to do the work. The problem is that they are too expensive.
As a worker drone in the UK, I think that these decisions are short-sighted, and detrimantal to the UK-plc.
However, I also recognise that the company has to contain it's costs, and if it cannot take the steps necessary to do so, it will either fold, or leave the UK.
If the UK was not expensive to operate a business and employ people, (in comparison to other locations), then there would be no need to move these departments offshore.
So my open ended question. Is the correct way to tackle this problem to put more financial barriers in the way of companies like this, in the shape of employment laws, higher rents, rates and taxes?

 

[The Large One]

I buy books and magazines.

What a cheating swindling bastard.