Congestion charge in Brighton & Hove

[TWOCHOICEStom]

Cheaper busses. It is ridiculous money at the moment. It's cheaper to get a taxi into town with 3 or 4 other people than it is to get a bus.

 

[house your seagull]

i was here when the manchester thing happened, i found it all quite sad and disheartening.

they way i saw it, there was no idea of municipal co-operation. manchester is lots of little towns all joined together and they are snobby about public transport.

when faced with being taxed for a luxury (which i fully support being a city centre resident / occasional public transport user) they ran a mile. the city voted about 90% against. now they moan about public transport, or traffic jams.

basically, they care about their doorstep, but not the rest of the city.

would people in portslade give a monkeys about the plight of those who live at the seven dials? probably not.

london had the right idea by introuducing it without consultation ... democracy sucks in these situations, where people will have to fish into their own pockets for the long term benefit of everyone in their city.

there's also something dodgy about B&H buses having the monopoly - the lack of competition doesn't bode well for an affordable and effective PT system to suit Brighton and Hove.

 

[sten_super]

i was here when the manchester thing happened, i found it all quite sad and disheartening.

they way i saw it, there was no idea of municipal co-operation. manchester is lots of little towns all joined together and they are snobby about public transport.

when faced with being taxed for a luxury (which i fully support being a city centre resident / occasional public transport user) they ran a mile. the city voted about 90% against. now they moan about public transport, or traffic jams.

basically, they care about their doorstep, but not the rest of the city.

would people in portslade give a monkeys about the plight of those who live at the seven dials? probably not.

london had the right idea by introuducing it without consultation ... democracy sucks in these situations, where people will have to fish into their own pockets for the long term benefit of everyone in their city.

there's also something dodgy about B&H buses having the monopoly - the lack of competition doesn't bode well for an affordable and effective PT system to suit Brighton and Hove.

I agree with pretty much all of that. People act selfishly in these situations, and don't consider the externalities. I'm actually in favour of most of the road pricing options.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

The trick about zoning a city centre for congestion charging is to change driver behaviour.

Part of the way to do this would be to improve public transport access - which, in Brighton, is fairly good anyway (although things could be done with pricing and ticketing - such as introducing Oyster Cards - to improve things).

The other thing that is essential is to establish alternatives to the cross-city routes that motorists use at the moment because there is no penalty for using them. To get this part of the plan right, they'd have to identify the roads that have the spare capacity to deliver a solution - a sort of "inner ring road", just outside the Congestion Charge zone.

That would be much more problematic. Montpelier Road - Seven Dials - Preston Circus - Viaduct Road - Ditchling Road - Grand Parade? With congestion charging inside that cordon?

Or should they put the inner ring road further out? Grand Avenue - The Drive in the west? Or Hove Street - Sackville Road? And where in the east? And how would the east and west bits be linked?

There's an interesting (and difficult) debate to be had. What will muddy the argument is, of course, that nobody knows how much of the cross-city traffic currently using the A259 seafront route would transfer to the A27 "outer ring road" alternative, rather than look for an "inner ring road" alternative. However uncertain the numbers are, you can be sure that someone with an axe to grind will come up numbers of their own that will be intended to sway the argument one way or the other.

 

[cunning fergus]

i was here when the manchester thing happened, i found it all quite sad and disheartening.

they way i saw it, there was no idea of municipal co-operation. manchester is lots of little towns all joined together and they are snobby about public transport.

when faced with being taxed for a luxury (which i fully support being a city centre resident / occasional public transport user) they ran a mile. the city voted about 90% against. now they moan about public transport, or traffic jams.

basically, they care about their doorstep, but not the rest of the city.

would people in portslade give a monkeys about the plight of those who live at the seven dials? probably not.

london had the right idea by introuducing it without consultation ... democracy sucks in these situations, where people will have to fish into their own pockets for the long term benefit of everyone in their city.

there's also something dodgy about B&H buses having the monopoly - the lack of competition doesn't bode well for an affordable and effective PT system to suit Brighton and Hove.

Yep f*** democracy, you sound like a future European Commissioner.

I bet you hate facsism though, just as long as its the wrong kind.........................Nazi scum off our streets......etc.etc.

 

[Foolg]

No-one can answer this because there are no proposals on the table. What the council wants to do is see if this is feasible only then will we be able to see what area's covered, the discounts (if any) for B&H residents, the time limits and charges. My guess is that, even if this went ahead, we'd be unlikely to see it implemented before 2012 at the earliest.

Ah thankyou, i presumed that a more detailed proposal had been written out which would have covered concerns such as this. I think if planned correctly, it could be just what we need, as traffic on summer days and reguarly going into town is a nightmare as others said. But again, as has already been pointed out the bus fares would certainly need to be sorted out. For a family of 4 from outside of Brighton, it is more than likely to cost over £14 for a return on the bus, no matter how far you are travelling. Those visiting for a day will probably not have Bus Id's etc, and so are then forced into paying adult fares i would presume, as this is the same for people i know. If its going to cost over £10 to use the current P+R service its obvious why people choose to drive in. Three decent park and rides, one to the west, an improved service from the north (withdean) and one to the east would do it, but make the fares sensible and appealing.

 

[Barry Izbak]

For me the most astonishing part of the story in the paper the other day was that they haven't decided to do it yet, but are planning to do a feasibility study.

The cost of this ? £2 million FFS !!

And like all these consultations, if anyone thinks they will spend that sort of money without being sure they can recoup it through implementing the tax, then they are fooling themselves.

 

[The Oldman]

Three decent park and rides, one to the west, an improved service from the north (withdean) and one to the east would do it, but make the fares sensible and appealing.

The present parking spaces at Withdean are not enough to provide a viable
P & R site to cope with traffic from the A23 and A 27. Mind you if you turned the whole of the stadium site into a P & R that might do. Not sure Mr Catt would like it though!

Seriously if you go to the towns which have proper P & R such as York, Ipswich, Norwich you would see the scale of what is needed. They have to be big to attract enough punters to pay for double decker buses leaving every 10 minutes. Charges vary but range from about £2 for car and 2 adults to about £5 for car and 4 adults.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Make the charge £5 a day , everyday. Only exemptions within the zone are public transport vehicles , residents vehicles and blue badge holders (with the council issuing permits to those with a genuine disability) . Bus services improved by a subsidy leading to lower fares from the revenue generated from the congestion charge.

 

[Superseagull]

The only winner from this would be the bus company (which is a private owned company). Whilst I think the service it provides is one of the best in the country, the prices it charges are very high. A congestion charge will just force people to park in residential areas outside of the city centre, then catch a bus in. Bus company makes £££'s, residents find it harder to park, scheme costs loads to run.

 

[GNF on Tour]

Apologies if the following question is slightly ridiculous, but i haven't read much into this proposal. The thing is i live in the Patcham/Withdean area of Brighton. With this proposed new congestion charge, i would presume that i would be outside of the designated "city centre" area of town. Now i often need to nip into town for odd things which would take too long on the bus, or due to various reasons wouldnt be worthwile (for example, my mum often requires lots of equipment for work, so the bus isnt practical). So would people like me, be charged everytime i drove into the city centre? or would it be more likely that people within say 5 miles of the City would be allowed a free permit?

Yes, you would have to pay, unless you qualified for some form of exemption (if your mums equipment is health related maybe?).

 

[WhingForPresident]

We're meant to be getting one in Reading
An average sized town, with no major attractions, getting a congestion charge.
Takes the piss.
It's a Government money making scam. End of.

 

[West Hoathly Seagull]

As someone else has mentioned, there needs to be park and ride facilities in place to allow the visitor, shopper, etc to drive to the outskirts of Brighton and the park and then hop on a bus within minutes.

I live just outside York, where its prctically impossible to drive, park within the city. They have 4/5 massive park and ride facilities and the buses are every 10 mins or so. Added to that fares are reasonably priced and it works a treat.

Would Brighton be able to set up something similar.

Oxford is similar. Huge car parks by the by pass, with a very reasonable charge (50p I think), then only £1.50 or so into the city and back, with very limited stops. Yes, Withdean is free, but then one has the awful 27, costing £3.60 or whatever. If I hadn't been going for a Southampton ticket, I would have thought "forget it" and gone to Tunbridge Wells (not Crawley, as it offers very little) or used my Travelcard into London for free. Could they not use the Marina car park (usually empty) as a park and ride and offer a (considerably cheaper) bus service into the city centre? Yes, I know the 7 runs from there, but presumably at the same high prices as the 27.

 

[Deleted User X18H]

Oxford is similar. Huge car parks by the by pass, with a very reasonable charge (50p I think), then only £1.50 or so into the city and back, with very limited stops. Yes, Withdean is free, but then one has the awful 27, costing £3.60 or whatever. If I hadn't been going for a Southampton ticket, I would have thought "forget it" and gone to Tunbridge Wells (not Crawley, as it offers very little) or used my Travelcard into London for free. Could they not use the Marina car park (usually empty) as a park and ride and offer a (considerably cheaper) bus service into the city centre? Yes, I know the 7 runs from there, but presumably at the same high prices as the 27.

Yeah but isn't it £3.60 for travel anywhere all day in the Brighton & Hove area.

 

[West Hoathly Seagull]

One thing I'm not sure of which has been raised on here - how would a new tram system be better than a (reliable) bus service?

Trams are always more effective at getting motorists out of their cars than buses. You only have to look at Manchester and Nottingham to see that. Large numbers of people who commute from Altrincham to Manchester used to drive in, and the same applies in Nottingham, where there is a huge park and ride at Phoenix Park next to the M1. Whatever we think of the place, Croydon's Tramlink also works a dream. For some reason, buses are seen as a D/E form of transport, i.e. for lower earners. This does not seem to apply in London, however. I think nothing of going back from my church running group on the Northern Line from Moorgate, or Seagulls over London from London Bridge, to Clapham Common, then catching a 35 or 37 back to my flat in Battersea, and my fellow passengers include a fair proportion of those one would call middle class. Outside London, it seems you only use a bus if you don't have a car.

 

[West Hoathly Seagull]

Yeah but isn't it £3.60 for travel anywhere all day in the Brighton & Hove area.

Maybe, I don't know, but I only wanted to go from Withdean to the club shop and back. £3.60 seemed rather steep. I could have walked to Preston Park and taken the train, using my Gold Card, but didn't have time.

 

[The Large One]

Trams are always more effective at getting motorists out of their cars than buses. You only have to look at Manchester and Nottingham to see that. Large numbers of people who commute from Altrincham to Manchester used to drive in, and the same applies in Nottingham, where there is a huge park and ride at Phoenix Park next to the M1. Whatever we think of the place, Croydon's Tramlink also works a dream. For some reason, buses are seen as a D/E form of transport, i.e. for lower earners. This does not seem to apply in London, however. I think nothing of going back from my church running group on the Northern Line from Moorgate, or Seagulls over London from London Bridge, to Clapham Common, then catching a 35 or 37 back to my flat in Battersea, and my fellow passengers include a fair proportion of those one would call middle class. Outside London, it seems you only use a bus if you don't have a car.

All fair points, but why would a tram be seen as successful over, say, Brighton's current bus service (exhorbitant bus fares notwithstanding)?

Is it a novelty thing?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

This seems to be back on the agenda as one of many considerations for traffic management as part of the discussions over the Masterplan for the city.

1. What do you think of a congestion charge in Brighton - good or bad?
2. If it had to come in, where should the boundaries of the charge zone be?
3. How would it affect you if it did come in?

Just curious, like.

1. Good.
2. North: Station, East: Amsterdam Cafe, West: Just beyond Osborne Villas.
3. A significant reduction in cars would make my life much more pleasant.

 

[8ace]

The modern tram systems in Croydump and Manchester (mostly) run on former railway lines so don't get stuck in traffic. No such former railway lines exist here so they'd have to share the roads with all the other traffic.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

All fair points, but why would a tram be seen as successful over, say, Brighton's current bus service (exhorbitant bus fares notwithstanding)?

Is it a novelty thing?

In my opinion trams rock. They are a great way of zipping round cities. Easy to use (i.e. you dont have to go underground or navigate stations) and they dont get caught up in traffic like buses do.

A tram system from King Alfreds to the Marina and from the pier to the station would be brilliant.....but highly unlikely.