Bring back hanging !

[Mr Burns]

If you remove everyone who MAY fall into that category, then you would hang many people who have never committed a crime, and may never do so.

Exactly. We're almost talking in terms of the Tom Cruise film Minoirty Report. Which is why I say to Simster and other, why try and understand why people murder children. What use is it? Short of removing thousands of innocent people, what possible use would this information have?

 

[The Large One]

So what would you call a child rapist/murderer? And how would you punish and try to understand a person who has commited this type of crime? What would be your method of trying to get inside their mind to find out what drives them to it?

What was being spoken about in terms of understanding people was stopping (or at least helping with the root causes) people with violent and/or criminal tendencies from being violent and/or criminal.

Once the heinous deed is done, then it's done (I don't mean to sound flippant - it's a reference to the helping of someone BEFORE the crime is committed), by all means lock them up and throw away the key. I'd rather they suffered 40 years of isolatory misery (a state of affairs which will break anyone) than the easy option of bloodlust - which to me is not justice, it's revenge.

Veering off the topic very slightly - what is the difference between the murder of a child and the murder of an adult? My point is - where does the greater value placed on a child's life than on an adult's life - that the punishment needs to be different - come from?

 

[British Bulldog]

I *think* I know what you're asking. It might be true that you can't prevent somebody who is hell bent on this sort of depravity, BUT what we can do as a society is create the conditions where the chance of this sort of case arising is minimised. But of course in order to do that, we really need to understand why it happens.

However, I will repeat this: trying to understand why murderers do this is NOT out of concern for the criminal - it's all about future prevention.

So come on then Simster i've told you how I would deal with these people and the fact imo there's nothing to understand about them, so explain how your system works?

How do you create a safer society? How do you prevent these crimes being commited? When those 2 have failed how would you punish the offender and what method would you use to get inside the mind of the offender?

 

[Lady Whistledown]

Unfortunately, if we let people, rather than the laws of the country, decide what becomes of the criminal element, what results is the kind of mob justice that occurred in Portsmouth in the wake of the Sarah Payne case, ie groups of brain-dead rabble rousers storming around their council estates demanding the "peados" (sic) be removed from their areas.

When all they really wanted was them moving to someone else's estate


Sex offenders are, regrettably, a fact of life, and there are more of them about than you probably think. But for those advocating they should all be strung up, where do you draw the line?? A bloke who pinched a woman's bum in a club and got done for sexual assault? What about a 24 year old man who's been convicted of having sex with his 15 year old girlfriend? Someone who drunkenly flashed at passers by in the park and got cautioned for exposure?

All sex offenders under the law, but which of them is more likely to go on and rape/kill a child? The answer is, nobody knows, and that's why the management of such people is better left in the hands of those qualified to deal with them, like the probation service, public protection officers and so on.

 

[El Presidente]

Exactly. We're almost talking in terms of the Tom Cruise film Minoirty Report. Which is why I say to Simster and other, why try and understand why people murder children. What use is it? Short of removing thousands of innocent people, what possible use would this information have?

All information has value if used wisely. The more you can understand the background, psyche, habits and mentality of such people then the better you can prevent abuses happening.

Most child murderers and sexual abusers are related to the child (or are catholic priests), what type of parent does this type of activity. With limited resources that the police and social services have, then surely you have to use those resources targeting the people most likely to commit the crime.

 

[Buzzer]

What was being spoken about in terms of understanding people was stopping (or at least helping with the root causes) people with violent and/or criminal tendencies from being violent and/or criminal.

Once the heinous deed is done, then it's done (I don't mean to sound flippant - it's a reference to the helping of someone BEFORE the crime is committed), by all means lock them up and throw away the key. I'd rather they suffered 40 years of isolatory misery (a state of affairs which will break anyone) than the easy option of bloodlust - which to me is not justice, it's revenge.

Veering off the topic very slightly - what is the difference between the murder of a child and the murder of an adult? My point is - where does the greater value placed on a child's life than on an adult's life - that the punishment needs to be different - come from?

Agree completely with this. I have no doubt that Myra Hindley suffered far, far more from being imprisoned than a quick execution.

 

[British Bulldog]

Are you asking or ranting? It sounds a bit like the latter, tbh. I'll still try and answer...
1. Sick, in the truest sense of the word. This is the point: to want to do something like that, you're clearly mentally ill. Being condemned to being treated as someone who's that unwell, both by other people and by the authorities, for the rest of your life is, I suggest, a bleak and grim punishment of itself, if that's what you're after.
2. See Edna K's posts. She'll know the reality of the system better than any of us. It doesn't exactly sound great, does it?
3. Aaaggh, I'm neither a social worker or criminal psychologist. but there are people that are. And yes, sometimes, they do screw up badly but that doesn't make it OK for the state to kill people instead.

Right, I do need to do some work! I'll write my report, you get my train home working OK. Deal?

I can assure you MOH i'm just asking, i'm not awake enough for a rant just yet!

I'll ask my work buddies to do their best with your train.

 

[British Bulldog]

Veering off the topic very slightly - what is the difference between the murder of a child and the murder of an adult? My point is - where does the greater value placed on a child's life than on an adult's life - that the punishment needs to be different - come from?

Murder is murder but this thread was started about the murder of a 2yr old so thats the line it's gone down.

 

[tedebear]

Veering off the topic very slightly - what is the difference between the murder of a child and the murder of an adult? My point is - where does the greater value placed on a child's life than on an adult's life - that the punishment needs to be different - come from?

Its odd that one - all the cases where small children have been murdered get such high publicity in the media...

I wonder if its something to do with the fact that kids especially this 2 year old are innocent and carefree and have a whole life ahead of them...and people are simply stunned to believe someone could do that to someone so young...

 

[Simster]

So come on then Simster i've told you how I would deal with these people and the fact imo there's nothing to understand about them, so explain how your system works?

How do you create a safer society? How do you prevent these crimes being commited? When those 2 have failed how would you punish the offender and what method would you use to get inside the mind of the offender?

I refer you to El Presidente's recent post about the merits of trying to understand wy this happens. But if I gave you an answer it would be a wishy washy one that would make me sound like a politician trying to paper over the cracks of a policy f*** up by someone else in his party - I can't give you a better answer because I'm not a social worker, a phsyciatrist, a social worker, or a police officer. i.e. I have no clue what causes this deviant behaviour and no experience with how best to handle such people. But I do believe that appropriately skilled people would be able to help create conditions in society that reduces the chance of this happening.

You however, seem to have a very clear answer to all this, yet haven't bothered to clear up the multitude of questions that your solution raises, such as when should the death penalty be applied (as opposed to life imprisonment)? And what about the potential miscarriages of justice? You're the one advocating change to policy, yet you haven't answered these points. So come on, let's hear it!

 

[British Bulldog]

Its odd that one - all the cases where small children have been murdered get such high publicity in the media...

I wonder if its something to do with the fact that kids especially this 2 year old are innocent and carefree and have a whole life ahead of them...and people are simply stunned to believe someone could do that to someone so young...

I think the death of a child whatever the circumstances allways hits home the hardest.

 

[Mr Burns]

Erm no, and you misjudge me. If British Bulldog is indeed NOT implying that anyone who disagrees with the death penalty is a PC do-gooder who cares more about the murderer than the victim, then I apologise unreservedly and I shouldn't have called him a cock.

Although that is however, how I read it - and if it is not the case, then why bother even mentioning these imaginery PC do-gooders. It adds nothing to the debate. Either these PC do-gooders are everywhere or they are an irrelevence. Make you mind up!

Well you can say what you like, but I would think most people who read what BB first wrote, would find it hard to read it they way you have. My guess is you've had a run in with BB before and have presumed what he said, rather than read what he said.

 

[Mr Burns]

All information has value if used wisely. The more you can understand the background, psyche, habits and mentality of such people then the better you can prevent abuses happening.

Most child murderers and sexual abusers are related to the child (or are catholic priests), what type of parent does this type of activity. With limited resources that the police and social services have, then surely you have to use those resources targeting the people most likely to commit the crime.

BUT HOW?

 

[British Bulldog]

I refer you to El Presidente's recent post about the merits of trying to understand wy this happens. But if I gave you an answer it would be a wishy washy one that would make me sound like a politician trying to paper over the cracks of a policy f*** up by someone else in his party - I can't give you a better answer because I'm not a social worker, a phsyciatrist, a social worker, or a police officer. i.e. I have no clue what causes this deviant behaviour and no experience with how best to handle such people. But I do believe that appropriately skilled people would be able to help create conditions in society that reduces the chance of this happening.

You however, seem to have a very clear answer to all this, yet haven't bothered to clear up the multitude of questions that your solution raises. Such as when should the death penalty be applied (as opposed to life imprisonment), what about the potential miscarriages of justice. You're the one advocating change to policy, yet you haven't answered these points. So come on, let's here it

In my eyes fella if you set out to murder someone then you are giving up your own right to life, If your found guilty beyond all reasonable doubt then thats it you get put to death.

When you've discovered the way of getting into these monsters minds then please let me know Simster because i'd be very interested.

 

[Simster]

Well you can say what you like, but I would think most people who read what BB first wrote, would find it hard to read it they way you have. My guess is you've had a run in with BB before and have presumed what he said, rather than read what he said.

No. Never ever had a run in with the fella. I'm sure he can confirm that. I just got riled at the false perception that he was saying that the country is overrun by "PC do-gooders", that these same people care more about the murderers than victims, and they are all the same group as anti-death penalty apologists.

You seem very good at telling everyone else what they think and read. You'll notice I gave an apology to BB, and I would say I was significantly less rude than you were in your very first post to me on this thread.

 

[El Presidente]

BUT HOW?

I am not a psychologist, or a social worker, or a police officer, so my knowledge is limited to personal experience (which some of you may remember was not very pleasant), an academic background, and little more.

1. It could turn out that child abusers have a genetic disposition to do what they do. If so, that gene could be identified, screened, and perhaps dealt with through medication.

2. It could be that their behaviour is due to social background, upbringing etc. If so, then government/society as a whole should aim to target those conditions. This will reduce the incidence of such behaviour in the future.

3. Everything has a cause, these acts do not happen by random. If it is due to exposure to pornography, alcohol, computer games, then the cause can be addressed, if we all decide that it is a price worth paying. If, for example, it was found that 90% of child abusers had consumed alcohol in the 2 hours before carrying out their acts, would it justify a 100% ban on alcohol in the UK?

 

[Simster]

In my eyes fella if you set out to murder someone then you are giving up your own right to life, If your found guilty beyond all reasonable doubt then thats it you get put to death.

There are have scores of cases of innocents put to death despite being proven "beyond reasonable doubt" that they are guilty. Remember those '70s IRA bombings in Guildford and Birmingham? Between them, there were TEN quashings of murder convictions in the '90s! TEN innocent lives right there.

But I guess it would have been OK to kill them, right?

 

[tedebear]

BUT HOW?

Clarice Starling? Didn't she profile someone already locked up to prevent other crimes?

All jokes aside, I think interviewing those already locked up about theirs lives and experiences is one way?

 

[El Presidente]

In my eyes fella if you set out to murder someone then you are giving up your own right to life

But what if you just intended to give them a bit of a slap, and they ended up dying?

Does that make it any better for the relatives of the victim, who has lost a wife, son, mother etc, just because their loved one died due to the fact that someone was busy texting their mate when they ran someone over, as opposed to having an argument with them in the pub, and then waiting outside with a broken bottle and sticking it through their neck?

 

[British Bulldog]

There are have scores of cases of innocents put to death despite being proven "beyond reasonable doubt" that they are guilty. Remember those '70s IRA bombings in Guildford and Birmingham? Between them, there were TEN quashings of murder convictions in the '90s! TEN innocent lives right there.

But I guess it would have been OK to kill them, right?

Like I said before times have moved on and the discovery of DNA has been a god send in convicting people of crimes, Unless of course DNA is not as reliable as we are lead to believe? Maybe Edna can answer that one?