[Politics] Brexit

[Two Professors]

A large percentage of Inners seem to have lost their sense of humour already.I dread to think what they'll be like by June!


Sent from my Windows 10 PC using sarcastictalk

 

[drew]

Whoooooooooo?

I take it you know all the members of both houses of Parliament and also the key figures in the civil service?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

The selection of the EU commissioner for each nation is up to the individual member states. It could be by popular vote, appointment, or any other system. The UK has chosen to select their commissioner by appointment. If you feel this to be undemocratic then fair enough, but this is the UK being undemocratic, not the EU.



And here it is laid bare. Your problem isn't that the EU is undemocratic, it's that it is democratic.

It's funny how many times "the EU is undemocratic" ends up turning in to "the UK can't do whatever it wants".

As every country appoints its commissioner I doubt there is the option for a carte blanche selection process you suggest (evidence?). But let's say we did all the other Commissioners would still not be elected so the point remains ... inherently undemocratic.

Does each vote cast by an EU citizen carry equal weight then? No of course not. You avoid the point that every single UK MEP's vote can be completely ignored which in anyones eyes should be seen as inherently undemocratic. I am astounded you can't see any problem here.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Brexit supporters are nobs.

don't feel left out
regards
DR

 

[drew]

As every country appoints its commissioner I doubt there is the option for a carte blanche selection process you suggest (evidence?). But let's say we did all the other Commissioners would still not be elected so the point remains ... inherently undemocratic.

Does each vote cast by an EU citizen carry equal weight then? No of course not. You avoid the point that every single UK MEP's vote can be completely ignored which in anyones eyes should be seen as inherently undemocratic. I am astounded you can't see any problem here.

Aren't you talking utter garbage? It's a European Parliament and therefore the majority vote rules. Based on your argument, the same can be said for the fact that the Conservatives can ignore (and probably do) every vote from the opposition.

The number of MEPs is dependent on the size of the population and, of course, includes PR so is probably more democratic than our own parliament.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

As many have pointed out, the Commission has no power. It can only propose law. This is no different than, for example, public enquiries which sometimes propose UK law. The U.K. has even has newspapers propose law. This is from the parliament website "Recommendations for new laws may also come from public inquiries, civil servants or lobbyist and campaign groups."

Out of interest how did you/do you think Uk law comes about?

Many? You're the first person who has said this as far as I am aware. That will come as a great surprise to the European Commission it does a lot more than just propose law/legislation which in itself is a form of exercising power as it's overriding goal is to put the EU first (ever closer union).The comparisons you make aren't strictly accurate as the Commision is the institution specifically set up to propose and instigate new law amongst other powers not an external lobby group/entity. There is apparently some debate as to which EU institution wields the most power.

Bills, which come in many forms.

 

[drew]

Many? You're the first person who has said this as far as I am aware. That will come as a great surprise to the European Commission it does a lot more than just propose law/legislation which in itself is a form of exercising power as it's overriding goal is to put the EU first (ever closer union).The comparisons you make aren't strictly accurate as the Commision is the institution specifically set up to propose and instigate new law amongst other powers not an external lobby group/entity. There is apparently some debate as to which EU institution wields the most power.

Bills, which come in many forms.

It's comical!!!

Do you think these commissioners sit in a room on their own think up laws on their own or is there the possibility that their governments give them a steer in the direction of the sort of laws that they can draft. What about external lobby groups dealing with commissioners and suggesting laws in the interests of the groups they represent.

 

[cunning fergus]

As many have pointed out, the Commission has no power. It can only propose law. This is no different than, for example, public enquiries which sometimes propose UK law. The U.K. has even has newspapers propose law. This is from the parliament website "Recommendations for new laws may also come from public inquiries, civil servants or lobbyist and campaign groups."

Out of interest how did you/do you think Uk law comes about?

The U.K. has no equivalent to the Commission, it is pointless making a comparison.

If the Commission has no power what is it doing as part of the Troika, literally balls deep in organising the austerity conditions for Greece. Why are they the EU institution instructing democratically elected Governments how many refugees to take and are currently organising TTIP with the US, as they do all other EU trade agreements. If the EU was democratic surely this work would be done by the Parliament?

The reality is they have power, real big swinging dick power, and no one knows who has their ear, however what we do know that top of the tree is Juncker, the man who organised the corporate tax evasion for global multinationals when Prime Minister of Luxembourg. If you think he has renounced his commitment to global capitalism to embrace workers rights you must be one weisswurst short of a breakfast.

Still, don't listen to me.......

http://corporateeurope.org/water-justice/2012/05/open-letter-eu-commission-water-privatisation

Good old EU, privatisation or die.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Aren't you talking utter garbage? It's a European Parliament and therefore the majority vote rules. Based on your argument, the same can be said for the fact that the Conservatives can ignore (and probably do) every vote from the opposition.

The number of MEPs is dependent on the size of the population and, of course, includes PR so is probably more democratic than our own parliament.

Not if you were following the argument. Europe isn't a country (which is where the confusion seems to lie). Yes a democratic majority can vote which could override our democratic wishes which is the bit I and many others have a problem with. Primacy of the UK parliament! Get it?

 

[Soulman]

Brexit supporters are nobs.

Says the man that starts banal and nobbish threads.

 

[cunning fergus]

Turkey? It's already happening. Slowly but surely.

Of course it is, the Fuhrer gets what the Fuhrer wants...........

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It's comical!!!

Do you think these commissioners sit in a room on their own think up laws on their own or is there the possibility that their governments give them a steer in the direction of the sort of laws that they can draft. What about external lobby groups dealing with commissioners and suggesting laws in the interests of the groups they represent.

What was comical or inaccurate about my last post?

The Commission was set up from the start to act as an independent supranational authority separate from governments; it has been described as "the only body paid to think European". The members are proposed by their member state governments, one from each, however they are bound to act independently - neutral from other influences such as those governments which appointed them. This is in contrast to the Council, which represents governments, and the Parliament, which represents citizens and the Economic and Social Committee, which the treaty says represents 'organised civil society'.

I have no doubt the Commissioners do try and represent their home nations interests but the Commission's role is well defined.

The Commission's job is to ensure that the European Union can attain its goal of an ever-closer union of its members.

Funny?

 

[drew]

Not if you were following the argument. Europe isn't a country (which is where the confusion seems to lie). Yes a democratic majority can vote which could override our democratic wishes which is the bit I and many others have a problem with. Primacy of the UK parliament! Get it?

I do get it. I just don't accept that it's more democratic here for a party with only 36% of the vote to dictate to the remaining 64%.

 

[Two Professors]

I take it you know all the members of both houses of Parliament and also the key figures in the civil service?

Why,do you know all 28 commissioners?A bit easier than the hundreds of MPs and Lords,who are deemed the democratic number of law-makers to represent our population-not some non-entities from tinpot baltic states with smaller populations than London

 

[drew]

What was comical or inaccurate about my last post?

The Commission was set up from the start to act as an independent supranational authority separate from governments; it has been described as "the only body paid to think European". The members are proposed by their member state governments, one from each, however they are bound to act independently - neutral from other influences such as those governments which appointed them. This is in contrast to the Council, which represents governments, and the Parliament, which represents citizens and the Economic and Social Committee, which the treaty says represents 'organised civil society'.

I have no doubt the Commissioners do try and represent their home nations interests but the Commission's role is well defined.

The Commission's job is to ensure that the European Union can attain its goal of an ever-closer union of its members.

Funny?

Because the picture that Brexit try to paint is that we are living under laws passed by unelected commissioners. It gets boring.

 

[melias shoes]

Brexit supporters are nobs.

Seriously Greg?

 

[GT49er]

The Commission's job is to ensure that the European Union can attain its goal of an ever-closer union of its members.

Yeh, that was what the British were asked to vote for in 1975, wasn't it? Or were politicians pulling the wool over our eyes even back then?

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Yes there are plenty because America also is the world's second largest economy, making up nearly a 1/5th of global GDP and an internal market of 300 million people. This is translated into trade deals which benefit multinational companies. A great place to HQ a business.

The EU is collectively the world's largest economy making up over a 1/5th of global GDP and has an international market of 500 million people. This is translated into trade deals, existing and being negotiated, that benefit multinational companies. A great place to HQ a business.

The UK is 3% of global GDP and has an internal market of 60 million people. Following Brexit we no longer have any trade deals, all of them have to be renegotiated - taking years. Moreover all our business legislation must be written. This is a terrible place to set up an HQ because we have not-so-cleverly decided to decimate our access and leverage within the world's largest economy and largest market.

Yes but I still want to use proper light bulbs and have a mega vacuum cleaner.

On a serious note. Do you believe everything the government says? We have the worlds 5th biggest economy and London is the financial centre of the world. Obviously the world would turn its back on us on June 24th.

 

[GT49er]

Seriously Greg?

He probably thinks he is being serious............................

 

[jgmcdee]

As every country appoints its commissioner I doubt there is the option for a carte blanche selection process you suggest (evidence?). But let's say we did all the other Commissioners would still not be elected so the point remains ... inherently undemocratic.

Does each vote cast by an EU citizen carry equal weight then? No of course not. You avoid the point that every single UK MEP's vote can be completely ignored which in anyones eyes should be seen as inherently undemocratic. I am astounded you can't see any problem here.

I don't avoid the point. You are saying that the fact that a minority of MEPs can be ignored is inherently undemocratic. I'm saying that it is democratic. It doesn't matter if those minority MEPs come purely from the UK or from a mix of different countries, the fact is that they are a minority and as such they don't get to control the lawmaking process by themselves.

Let me try this. Taking your quote and changing a few key words to provide an analogy:

Does each vote cast by a UK citizen carry equal weight then? No of course not. You avoid the point that every single Sussex MP's vote can be completely ignored which in anyones eyes should be seen as inherently undemocratic.

Do you agree with the above sentence? And if not, why not, when you wrote the prior one?

For the record, you said before that you wanted straight line accountability to those who make the laws that affect the UK to be purely within the remit of the UK citizens. I'm fine with that as a position to take and understand if that is something that you want, but am disappointed that you feel the need to paint the EU as an undemocratic institution as a way of justifying it.