[Politics] Brexit

[GT49er]

Are you looking at this from our referendum or the position and your view from living in Germany. I daresay Germany will benefit more if we stay in.

.....and risk losing more control if other wavering countries (Denmark and Holland for instance) start giving their people referendums too.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Are you looking at this from our referendum or the position and your view from living in Germany. I daresay Germany will benefit more if we stay in.

I'm looking at it from what's best for the UK.

 

[5ways]

We are constantly being told (duped) that there will be a "loss of trade", where is the proof apart from those that want us to stay in because it is beneficial to them. No real proof just assumption. Who knows when the shackles are taken off our trade could could do very nicely.

You're not being duped. You're being told by everyone who might know what they're talking about.

Bank of England says Brexit carries risk of credit crunch
https://next.ft.com/content/46c30d52-f596-11e5-96db-fc683b5e52db

Brexit threatens to cause 'severe global damage', warns IMF
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...tens-to-cause-severe-global-damage-warns-imf/

Brexit could be a disaster for struggling UK exporters, warns insolvency firm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...saster-for-struggling-uk-exporters-warns--in/

Brexit' Would Cause Significant Damage, Oxford Economics Says
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ause-significant-damage-oxford-economics-says

Brexit will hurt world economy — US Treasury chief

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/776923/brexit-will-hurt-world-economy-us-treasury-chief#ixzz46509twQn


Treasury in new EU warning
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/business/article1688024.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2016_04_16

I'm sure they're all wrong, though.

 

[Soulman]

You're not being duped. You're being told by everyone who might know what they're talking about.

Bank of England says Brexit carries risk of credit crunch
https://next.ft.com/content/46c30d52-f596-11e5-96db-fc683b5e52db

Brexit threatens to cause 'severe global damage', warns IMF
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...tens-to-cause-severe-global-damage-warns-imf/

Brexit could be a disaster for struggling UK exporters, warns insolvency firm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...saster-for-struggling-uk-exporters-warns--in/

Brexit' Would Cause Significant Damage, Oxford Economics Says
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ause-significant-damage-oxford-economics-says

Brexit will hurt world economy — US Treasury chief

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/776923/brexit-will-hurt-world-economy-us-treasury-chief#ixzz46509twQn


Treasury in new EU warning
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/business/article1688024.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2016_04_16

I'm sure they're all wrong, though.

Nice list.
There are many links that support exit, and links that oppose your links.
Obviously you will not change your mind, neither will i. I want us to be in control of our own country and destiny, not ruled and ripped off by unelected, faceless bureaucrats.

 

[GT49er]

Bank of England says Brexit carries risk of credit crunch
https://next.ft.com/content/46c30d52-f596-11e5-96db-fc683b5e52db.

Economic argument, based on prediction/speculation by a party with a vested interest in staying in.

Brexit threatens to cause 'severe global damage', warns IMF
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...tens-to-cause-severe-global-damage-warns-imf/.

Economic argument, based on prediction/speculation.

Brexit could be a disaster for struggling UK exporters, warns insolvency firm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...saster-for-struggling-uk-exporters-warns--in/.

Economic argument, based on prediction/speculation by a party with a vested interest in staying in.

Brexit' Would Cause Significant Damage, Oxford Economics Says
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ause-significant-damage-oxford-economics-says.

Economic argument, based on prediction/speculation.

Brexit will hurt world economy — US Treasury chief.

Economic argument, based on prediction/speculation by a party with a vested interest in Britain staying in, when it's none of the damn business!

Treasury in new EU warning
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/business/article1688024.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2016_04_16.

Economic argument, based on prediction/speculation by a party with a vested interest in staying in.

Economic arguments - appears to be all the 'inners' have got.

I'm sure they're all wrong, though.

You may indeed have a point there!

 

[5ways]

Nice list.
There are many links that support exit, and links that oppose your links.
Obviously you will not change your mind, neither will i. I want us to be in control of our own country and destiny, not ruled and ripped off by unelected, faceless bureaucrats.

That's fine and I accept that but just because there are two choices doesn't mean both arguments are of equal weight. Every major financial and economic institution, domestic and global, will tell you Brexit is a bad idea. The Bank of England, and Treasury and the IMF all tell us that it will do deep economic damage to the UK and world economy. For me that is not a price worth paying.

 

[5ways]

Economic argument, based on prediction/speculation by a party with a vested interest in staying in.


Economic argument, based on prediction/speculation.


Economic argument, based on prediction/speculation by a party with a vested interest in staying in.


Economic argument, based on prediction/speculation.


Economic argument, based on prediction/speculation by a party with a vested interest in Britain staying in, when it's none of the damn business!


Economic argument, based on prediction/speculation by a party with a vested interest in staying in.

Economic arguments - appears to be all the 'inners' have got.


You may indeed have a point there!

Yes I'm afraid that there are lots of economic arguments for staying in.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

What's the key issue for everyone? Immigration? The economy? The undemocratic nature of the EU?

The in campaign seems to focus solely on the economy, but for me there are other major concerns. What I hate about the EU is the undemocratic nature, with an elite that are more out of touch than even our own politicians; which is saying something!

I think what Merkel did was wrong, and because she made a mistake she expects every other country in the EU to take up the slack, and when other countries said NO, then the EU says you will be forced to take quotas. That is not democracy in my eyes, that is more like a dictatorship.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Economic argument, based on prediction/speculation by a party with a vested interest in staying in.


Economic argument, based on prediction/speculation.


Economic argument, based on prediction/speculation by a party with a vested interest in staying in.


Economic argument, based on prediction/speculation.


Economic argument, based on prediction/speculation by a party with a vested interest in Britain staying in, when it's none of the damn business!


Economic argument, based on prediction/speculation by a party with a vested interest in staying in.

Economic arguments - appears to be all the 'inners' have got.


You may indeed have a point there!

This is why I can't really be arsed with this thread.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

That's fine and I accept that but just because there are two choices doesn't mean both arguments are of equal weight. Every major financial and economic institution, domestic and global, will tell you Brexit is a bad idea. The Bank of England, and Treasury and the IMF all tell us that it will do deep economic damage to the UK and world economy. For me that is not a price worth paying.

What like the RBS, which our government bailed out with tax payers money, then tell us Brexit is bad idea at the same time as shedding thousands of job. It really is hypocritical.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

We are constantly being told (duped) that there will be a "loss of trade", where is the proof apart from those that want us to stay in because it is beneficial to them. No real proof just assumption. Who knows when the shackles are taken off our trade could could do very nicely.

Duped? Numerous key people are giving their thoughts on the matter. You take on board what they say, in the context it's given, and decide whether you agree with their comment or not.

For example Osborne has claimed mortages will increase. He is clearly not gaving you a cast-iron guarantee they will increase, more his opinion they will. And if he was giving you a cast-iron guarantee then any normal person would take it with a pinch of salt. To say people are being duped is daft.

 

[Two Professors]

I bet Delusional Dave wished Osbo was in the Out camp-he's a bit of a busted flush now.Should have changed jobs when ahead of the game,now a failed chancellor nobody believes.

 

[Bladders]

Democracy in the EU? Yeah right

Britain is the second most underrepresented country in the EU.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

A couple of interesting articles on the inherent Democratic flaws of the EU project and how it may well be doomed to fail.

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85953

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2015/11/crisis-without-end

 

[jgmcdee]

A couple of interesting articles on the inherent Democratic flaws of the EU project and how it may well be doomed to fail.

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85953

The argument of this post is:

And that factor which makes the EU anti-democratic is the European Commission and its "right of initiative", the fact that is has the monopoly power to propose new legislation.

The commission is made of members put forward by each member state. Seems democratic enough to me.

Someone has to propose new legislation, and there have to be limits on who can propose legislation. There's an argument for increasing the ability to propose new legislation to the entire parliament, but that's a question of where a line is drawn rather than a fundamental difference in democracy.

And of course none of the laws proposed by the commission will be enacted without the approval of the democratically elected parliament.

Can you explain clearly what the "inherent Democratic flaws" are?

 

[melias shoes]

Naive to say the least ! No, Obama wants to ensue the UK stays in the EU so that we are part of TTIP and thus giving the USA direct access to the UK market.

Is the correct answer.

 

[Two Professors]

I don't recall being asked to vote for any of these dodgy looking clowns-don't seem democratic to me!
EU commissioners-never heard of any of them.


Sent from my bog by a frog

 

[Bladders]

I don't recall being asked to vote for any of these dodgy looking clowns-don't seem democratic to me!View attachment 73730
EU commissioners-never heard of any of them.


Sent from my bog by a frog

Whoooooooooo?

 

[cunning fergus]

The argument of this post is:



The commission is made of members put forward by each member state. Seems democratic enough to me.

Someone has to propose new legislation, and there have to be limits on who can propose legislation. There's an argument for increasing the ability to propose new legislation to the entire parliament, but that's a question of where a line is drawn rather than a fundamental difference in democracy.

And of course none of the laws proposed by the commission will be enacted without the approval of the democratically elected parliament.

Can you explain clearly what the "inherent Democratic flaws" are?

I attach a selection of quotes from the great and the good concerning the EU, and democracy. Some of the key quotes you will note relate to how EU politicians and technocrats reacted to the outcome of referendums on the EU constitution in France and Holland. The results of which were completely ignored as the key constitutional clauses were served back up in the Lisbon Treaty.

http://www.politicalscrapbook.co.uk/kirk-kus-blog/the-great-eu-quotes/

At the time Peter Mandelson referred to the Treaty as a "tidying up exercise". The Labour Party had committed to give the British people a referendum on the constitution in there 2005 Manifesto (page 84 if my memory serves).

Even committed Europhiles (like Corbyn) accept there are democratic issues with the EU, however these are structural, and these shortcomings ignore the years of lies and deceit we have been served up by our own politicians about the aims of the EU.

It is this culture of treating the UK electorate like mugs that really sticks in the craw, particularly when UK politicians talk about aggressive expansionism of an undemocratic Russia, whilst ignoring the fact that the EU is due to push its own borders to Syria, Iraq and Iran without a by your leave from the EU electorates.

Unless of course you think we have all voted to let Turkey in?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

The argument of this post is:



The commission is made of members put forward by each member state. Seems democratic enough to me.

Someone has to propose new legislation, and there have to be limits on who can propose legislation. There's an argument for increasing the ability to propose new legislation to the entire parliament, but that's a question of where a line is drawn rather than a fundamental difference in democracy.

And of course none of the laws proposed by the commission will be enacted without the approval of the democratically elected parliament.

Can you explain clearly what the "inherent Democratic flaws" are?

You mean unelected Political appointees having a significant role in proposing legislation effecting the people is democratic. Would you be happy for a British Government to appoint the department heads of the UK civil service and give them the power to propose laws and legislation?

Yes normally governments who are elected by the people propose legislation not unelected officials. As I am only interested in direct democratic accountability to the UK electorate any increased power to the EP would make no difference, just increase the illusion of democratic legitimacy for another level of government at a European level that could completely ignore a majority or even all our MEP's votes (our wishes) if it so chose and we could do naff all to change it.

And of course the unelected commission can ignore any suggested new legislation or amendments made to current legislation, or calls to remove/change past legislation from the representatives of the democratically elected parliament.

See above.