[Politics] Brexit

[mikeyjh]

That link made me chuckle too. The first sentence - "Leave.EU played a decisive role in the British public’s historic vote to leave the EU on June 23rd." - what a load of bollox. Never heard of them, and I doubt if many of my fellow leave voters did either. Decisive role my foot!

And I'm really sorry you're having so much trouble in understanding the simple phrase, 'leave the EU.' It means leaving the EU, cancelling our membership, being a member no longer, becoming an ex-member. Don't think I can make it any clearer.

Just bouncing this for clarity - Yeah, we all knew what we were voting for....

 

[Soulman]

All along since joining the common market, politicians tried to hide the truth about European plans for a superstate.

'It will never happen, there are no plans for a European state, a European army, our laws will be protected, we won't lose sovereignty, federal state means something quite innocent in Brussels~it's a difficult word in Britain, for Europeans it means more say to individual states, subsidiarity will protect the individual citizen (ha, I wonder how long I'd last saying that on the streets of Athens) integration removes German domination', and so on and so forth.

Integration came by stealth. Now the EU is creaking at the seams as this immoral and deeply subversive policy has been found out.

Spot on. Great shout.

 

[mikeyjh]

The 5 month delay is not the fault of those that voted leave. What the vote means to those who voted leave was, controlling immigration, our laws being decided in the UK, not by unelected EU "officials", setting up and deciding our own trade deals and tariffs, stop putting millions a day into a bottomless pit.
If the government can not implement the will and decision of the majority of an referendum that THEY called, then how is that the fault of the leave voters.

Oh, I agree, I entirely blame Cameron, Johnson et al for this, 100%. They called it, they didn't have a plan, that's shambolic.

 

[synavm]

Lets clarify, as you are twisting already....As far as im concerned

The leave position was clear
The remain position was clear

Even The President of The European Council is clear he knew what the positions were when he says voting to leave was about ending free movement

Seems to me its only remainer voters like yourself who are saying no one knew( remainers and leavers) what they were voting for even though those in charge of the Remain campaign knew full well the options and what was on the table

We don't even know now what Brexit means other than leaving the EU. I seriously doubt people were prepared to leave the EU at all costs - a fall in living standards for example usually changes public opinion quite drastically- and that's where the confusion is. The consequences of leaving the EU whilst remaining in single market is very different to leaving both and there are plenty of other models besides those two, so no, people didn't have a clue what they were voting for.

 

[Baldseagull]

No one can say what the EU will look like in a few years if it even exists. Similarly no one knows exactly what Brexit will look like.

We voted whether to remain part of the EU or not.

I can accept that the EU is an evolving thing, and it's structure and direction may change. However, Cameron got a few concessions from the EU that would have come into force if we had voted remain. One of those concessions was that Britain would not be forced into any greater union and that membership of the EEA would not be lost by staying away from any further integration. So whatever the evolution of the EU, Britain would not change much.
I think this is the motivator for many leave voters, nothing much would change with remain, if you feel a bit downtrodden, why would you want things to remain the same? The answer I came to, was that it is not the EU that is the cause of most of our problems, and in fact does many things that are of benefit.
Out could mean little change if we are out like Norway, or massive change if we are out like America.

 

[pastafarian]

I can quite see that the question asked on the ballot may baffle some remainers on here as it is so 'vague'.

'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union.'

Highly confusing I'm sure.

Questionnaire: the question on the ballot was Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union.....the majority voted to leave

some Bloke : i know ..We should leave The European Union its only fair....they won........ but we should remain as members of the single market, be governed by the ECJ that regulates the single market and therefore be subject to its laws that make it supreme over westminster legislation, we will have to keep free movement of course.....that goes without saying.

Questionnaire:That sounds like staying in the EU

some Bloke : Yeah it is

Questionnaire: So its not leaving after all

some Bloke : yes its not leaving, but we will call it soft leaving or soft brexit......no one will notice.....even if they do notice we have loads of crap up our sleeve we havnt pulled out yet to try and overturn the vote.....we will just blame the delays on democracy.

Questionnaire: Do you have any democratic morals?

some Bloke: You are funny.....of course not.......i support The EU......we hate referendums by idiot civilians......if they get it wrong we purge the story so they have to do it again until they get it right......its not as if you didnt know this....we have form

 

[synavm]

All along since joining the common market, politicians tried to hide the truth about European plans for a superstate.

'It will never happen, there are no plans for a European state, a European army, our laws will be protected, we won't lose sovereignty, federal state means something quite innocent in Brussels~it's a difficult word in Britain, for Europeans it means more say to individual states, subsidiarity will protect the individual citizen (ha, I wonder how long I'd last saying that on the streets of Athens) integration removes German domination', and so on and so forth.

Integration came by stealth. Now the EU is creaking at the seams as this immoral and deeply subversive policy has been found out.

Except we hold a veto, so it'd be our representatives and the European Parliament and Council that would be at fault for pushing through things like an EU army.

On the EU being a superstate, I agree that many within the EU want to see this. What I would say is that generally speaking the EU only really imposes trade regulation in substantial numbers (most of which doesn't apply to us). If you look at laws and statutory instruments alone, you're looking at 15% of everything passed past year. Indeed only three of the 93 acts of Parliament passed in the last 23 years have come from the EU.

 

[pastafarian]

We don't even know now what Brexit means other than leaving the EU. I seriously doubt people were prepared to leave the EU at all costs - a fall in living standards for example usually changes public opinion quite drastically- and that's where the confusion is. The consequences of leaving the EU whilst remaining in single market is very different to leaving both and there are plenty of other models besides those two, so no, people didn't have a clue what they were voting for.

you are of course fully entitled to say remainers didnt know what they were voting for........going by a few on here who didnt realise what the remain side were campaigning against i would tend to agree with you,......it was a clear failing of the remain camp to get their actual message accross

 

[synavm]

you are of course fully entitled to say remainers didnt know what they were voting for........going by a few on here who didnt realise what the remain side were campaigning against i would tend to agree with you,......it was a clear failing of the remain camp to get their actual message accross

I'd agree that the Remain Campaigns were shoddy, but I think Vote Leave relied on a lot of rhetoric and spin and failed to present a realistic vision of how post-Brexit Britain would operate and what it would mean for people's living standards- I think some of it was very misleading. In fact some of the stuff that has happened was dismissed as project fear at the time.

For full disclosure I think both sides were dishonest and the BBC in particular failed to fulfill its charter by not educating it's audience in a straight forward way, free of the spin from both campaigns.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Oh, I agree, I entirely blame Cameron, Johnson et al for this, 100%. They called it, they didn't have a plan, that's shambolic.

Why aren't you blaming labour? I think the appetite for a referendum was high in any case, but their open door policy on immigration and particularly allowing former eastern European countries immediate access to the UK heightened the pressure massively. Especially when the banking crisis hit. This problem is more Tony Blair and Gordon Brown than the hapless Cameron who was left with unpalatable choices.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

We don't even know now what Brexit means other than leaving the EU. I seriously doubt people were prepared to leave the EU at all costs - a fall in living standards for example usually changes public opinion quite drastically- and that's where the confusion is. The consequences of leaving the EU whilst remaining in single market is very different to leaving both and there are plenty of other models besides those two, so no, people didn't have a clue what they were voting for.

Did you ever hear of project fear? Most of the established politicians and bankers told the people time and again about the economic meltdown that would ensue if we voted leave.

In respect, your post is ridiculous in the light of that.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Except we hold a veto, so it'd be our representatives and the European Parliament and Council that would be at fault for pushing through things like an EU army.

On the EU being a superstate, I agree that many within the EU want to see this. What I would say is that generally speaking the EU only really imposes trade regulation in substantial numbers (most of which doesn't apply to us). If you look at laws and statutory instruments alone, you're looking at 15% of everything passed past year. Indeed only three of the 93 acts of Parliament passed in the last 23 years have come from the EU.

The veto is meaningless whilst our politicians are spineless like Thatcher at Maastricht. It's the slow slow ebbing effect.

As for law, that has been found to be highly subjective as the percentage alters dependent upon whichever vested party presents its figures.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I'd agree that the Remain Campaigns were shoddy, but I think Vote Leave relied on a lot of rhetoric and spin and failed to present a realistic vision of how post-Brexit Britain would operate and what it would mean for people's living standards- I think some of it was very misleading. In fact some of the stuff that has happened was dismissed as project fear at the time.

For full disclosure I think both sides were dishonest and the BBC in particular failed to fulfill its charter by not educating it's audience in a straight forward way, free of the spin from both campaigns.

That is a very fair post IMO.

 

[synavm]

Did you ever hear of project fear? Most of the established politicians and bankers told the people time and again about the economic that would ensue if we voted leave.

In respect, your post is ridiculous in the light of that.

I think your post is quite ridiculous on the basis we haven't left yet and don't even know the terms! At this stage you have to look at what the speculators are doing, how the markets are responding. The currency has collapsed, food prices have risen at an average of 5% (this will inevitably be passed onto the consumer), wages are forecasted to remain at the same level until 2020 (the longest period since the great depression), inflation will rise to at least 4% in 2018 and without wage growth, that'll mean on average we'll be £1500 a year worse off. The only markets that have responded positively are those where stakeholders capitalise off the fall in the pound. The problem is, project fear is becoming project reality.

In the long term, Brexit can work if we sort out our trade deficit but that is going to take a bit of work so in the short term it's more or less inevitable living standards are going to fall.

 

[pastafarian]

I'd agree that the Remain Campaigns were shoddy, but I think Vote Leave relied on a lot of rhetoric and spin and failed to present a realistic vision of how post-Brexit Britain would operate and what it would mean for people's living standards. In fact some of the stuff that has happened was dismissed as project fear at the time.

For full disclosure I think both sides were dishonest and the BBC in particular failed to fulfill its charter by not educating it's audience in a straight forward way, free of the spin from both campaigns.

Then dont rely on the BBC or anyone else for that matter. Educate yourself.
One thing is very clear from this whole debate, those amongst us who have been against The EU for years some over 20 years or longer have had to source their own information for years, often against the mainstream BBC. Very many pro Europeans came late to the party, only when the referendum was announced and believed far too much last minute bullcrap......last minute bullshit lost the day.

 

[pastafarian]

Indeed only three of the 93 acts of Parliament passed in the last 23 years have come from the EU.

Have to say this caught my eye
Are you sure there have only been 93 acts of parliament in the last 23 years?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I think your post is quite ridiculous on the basis we haven't left yet and don't even know the terms! At this stage you have to look at what the speculators are doing, how the markets are responding. The currency has collapsed, food prices have risen at an average of 5% (this will inevitably be passed onto the consumer), wages are forecasted to remain at the same level until 2020 (the longest period since the great depression), inflation will rise to at least 4% in 2018 and without wage growth, that'll mean on average we'll be £1500 a year worse off.

In the long term, Brexit can work if we sort out our trade deficit but that is going to take a bit of work so in the short term it's more or less inevitable living standards are going to fall.

The currency has not collapsed. The exchange rate is very similar to that in 2013. Shall we blame the EU and euro for 2013 as we were enthusiastic members back then?

 

[BigGully]

I'd agree that the Remain Campaigns were shoddy, but I think Vote Leave relied on a lot of rhetoric and spin and failed to present a realistic vision of how post-Brexit Britain would operate and what it would mean for people's living standards- I think some of it was very misleading. In fact some of the stuff that has happened was dismissed as project fear at the time.

For full disclosure I think both sides were dishonest and the BBC in particular failed to fulfill its charter by not educating it's audience in a straight forward way, free of the spin from both campaigns.

I dont think was ever obtainable from the Leave camp, Remain had such an overwhelming advantage and soon we were all being swallowed up by project fear, the Leave campaign just would not have been heard if they just put together some calm collective future vision of a sustainable UK outside of the EU.

That might be something desired now once the referendum has been run, but prior or during the campaign it was nearly impossible if a Leave vote was the objective.

They too had to become hard hitting, it would be pretty pointless being a considerate loser and no credit would ever be given to its losing campaign.

 

[Baldseagull]

Lets clarify, as you are twisting already....As far as im concerned

The leave position was clear
The remain position was clear

Even The President of The European Council is clear he knew what the positions were when he says voting to leave was about ending free movement

Seems to me its only remainer voters like yourself who are saying no one knew( remainers and leavers) what they were voting for even though those in charge of the Remain campaign knew full well the options and what was on the table

I will be happy to apologise if you can point me to where I have claimed that no one on remain side knew what they were voting for, but I don't think I have ever made that claim. Leave campaigning included economic benefits of having a Norway type arrangement and getting control of immigration. I think most of us agree those two things are incompatible, but which one should be dropped. I know you think this is a question only for Leave voters to answer, but it really isn't.

 

[mikeyjh]

Why aren't you blaming labour? I think the appetite for a referendum was high in any case, but their open door policy on immigration and particularly allowing former eastern European countries immediate access to the UK heightened the pressure massively. Especially when the banking crisis hit. This problem is more Tony Blair and Gordon Brown than the hapless Cameron who was left with unpalatable choices.

I'm was responding very specifically about the referendum, the planning for it and the question that was asked.