[Politics] Brexit

[Neville's Breakfast]

What are these concerns of which you speak? If you're talking about immigration affecting jobs that's been proved to be of minimum impact.....

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/287287/occ109.pdf

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit05.pdf

Another concern is that that the UK is already overpopulated and that there isn't enough houses. That doesn't wash with me either given that I live in a country that has double the population yet half the arable land mass and still seems to manage to find houses for everyone. As was debated earlier in this thread the perception of overpopulation is more to do with lack of housing rather than there being too many immigrants.

After those two what concerns are there?

Those concerns have been outlined on here many times and include an unwillingness to accept the return of religion to our
society after a long period of moving to secularism, pressure on public services and downward pressure on wages for the lowest paid. This last point is particularly important because many argue that the solution to the house price crisis is to increase supply of houses whilst simultaneously denying that increasing supply of Labour will decrease the price of Labour.
I'm not sure if Japan is a model for the type of multicultural society that is being created without consent in the U.K. in any case. Population in Asian countries and particularly in Japan is becoming heavily concentrated in the cities with ever smaller living spaces. There is very little appetite in the U.K. for expanding London down towards the South coast for instance (to make an equivalent to Tokyo). Japan also does not accept mass immigration and actively prevents cultures such as Islam from gaining a foothold.

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

Cabinet split threatens to derail May’s Brexit talks

Leaked memo reveals Whitehall tensions



http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...eatens-to-derail-may-s-brexit-talks-hxfwmv2td

Didn't somebody tell them that really it is SO simple, as simple as Brexit means Brexit for gods sake.

 

[sir albion]

Just trigger article 50 and stop bloody whinging....bunch of twats many of these MP's.Guess they must be worried that their high paid job in Brussels may never happen.
The sooner it's done the better

 

[Steve in Japan]

even a dyed in the wool Guardian reader like myself

A bit of a tangent, but, like you, the Guardian was always my first read online. Brilliant website, kept up-to-date through-out the day, and the Comments section can be excellent.

From an Editorial sense, I think they lost their way since the 2015 General Election/Corbyn shenanigans, Brexit pushed them a lot closer to the edge of reason, and they have completely lost the plot since Trump. They are failing to connect with anybody outside of their Left-Wing, urban readership. They have misread the mood of the UK and US in a spectacular and are now desperately trying to redefine what it means to be on the Left.

In short they are in a bit of a spiral and this is coming at a time when they will need to bring in a PayWall.

The pity of this is that should they disappear, I'm not sure where the independent reader could go to instead.

 

[yxee]

What are these concerns of which you speak? If you're talking about immigration affecting jobs that's been proved to be of minimum impact.....

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/287287/occ109.pdf

I was pretty surprised at your post, so I had a look at this link. The report contains plenty of caveats that the data are limited and that it's impossible to draw solid conclusions;

"the nature of the available empirical data makes it difficult to reach definitive conclusions with regard to displacement"​

Furthermore, the report actually suggests that immigrants displace natives (their words, not mine):

"The MAC also identified a statistically significant impact of all migrants, and particularly non-EU migrants, on native employment rates between 1995 and 2010."

"Displacement effects are more likely to be identified in periods when net migration volumes are high"
​

Did you just post the PDF as "proof" and hope that nobody would read it?!

If anything it seems to disprove what you say!

 

[Guinness Boy]

A bit of a tangent, but, like you, the Guardian was always my first read online. Brilliant website, kept up-to-date through-out the day, and the Comments section can be excellent.

From an Editorial sense, I think they lost their way since the 2015 General Election/Corbyn shenanigans, Brexit pushed them a lot closer to the edge of reason, and they have completely lost the plot since Trump. They are failing to connect with anybody outside of their Left-Wing, urban readership. They have misread the mood of the UK and US in a spectacular and are now desperately trying to redefine what it means to be on the Left.

In short they are in a bit of a spiral and this is coming at a time when they will need to bring in a PayWall.

The pity of this is that should they disappear, I'm not sure where the independent reader could go to instead.

Yes, they are not independent at all and I find myself reading it less often.

 

[alfredmizen]

Just trigger article 50 and stop bloody whinging....bunch of twats many of these MP's.Guess they must be worried that their high paid job in Brussels may never happen.
The sooner it's done the better

Disagree mate , I want us to prepare properly rather than just storm out slamming the door behind us.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Just trigger article 50 and stop bloody whinging....bunch of twats many of these MP's.Guess they must be worried that their high paid job in Brussels may never happen.
The sooner it's done the better

That would be crazy. Regardless of how anyone voted in the referendum, surely everyone agrees that we have to define a clear strategy and process, rather than just spiting ourselves by throwing our toys out?

Disagree mate , I want us to prepare properly rather than just storm out slamming the door behind us.

Yes - that.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

A bit of a tangent, but, like you, the Guardian was always my first read online. Brilliant website, kept up-to-date through-out the day, and the Comments section can be excellent.

From an Editorial sense, I think they lost their way since the 2015 General Election/Corbyn shenanigans, Brexit pushed them a lot closer to the edge of reason, and they have completely lost the plot since Trump. They are failing to connect with anybody outside of their Left-Wing, urban readership. They have misread the mood of the UK and US in a spectacular and are now desperately trying to redefine what it means to be on the Left.

In short they are in a bit of a spiral and this is coming at a time when they will need to bring in a PayWall.

The pity of this is that should they disappear, I'm not sure where the independent reader could go to instead.

You'd have to define left wing. They don't appeal to the left of the Labour Party, far from it.

 

[alfredmizen]

That would be crazy. Regardless of how anyone voted in the referendum, surely everyone agrees that we have to define a clear strategy and process, rather than just spiting ourselves by throwing our toys out?



Yes - that.

Absolutely agree, do the "just trigger article 50" mob not understand the complexity of disentangling ourselves and the horrendous damage we could do to ourselves ?

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Absolutely agree, do the "just trigger article 50" mob not understand the complexity of disentangling ourselves and the horrendous damage we could do to ourselves ?

Clearly they don't, no.

They just want their country back, and are not interested in all that boring diplomacy / negotiation / law-making / legislation / zzzzzzzzzzzzz.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Do please behave. As Pastafarian and Footy Genius repeatedly explained to us before the referendum this isn't going to happen. Anyone suggesting that France would shift the border is just a Project Fear merchant. Anyone believing it is just a gullible fool.

As Pastafarian and Footy Genius repeatedly explained the claims made by Project fear merchants on the back of comments made by members of the French government were unlikely to be true.

Theresa May and Francois Hollande agree that border controls in Calais will stay despite Brexit

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...rancois-hollande-french-president-demands-pm/

Quelle surprise

 

[beardy gull]

Government saying they "don't recognise" the leaked document. Hmmm.

 

[Steve in Japan]

You'd have to define left wing. They don't appeal to the left of the Labour Party, far from it.

Not sure I can define it anymore, the political terms we have used for decades seem to be no longer valid. I think that's what has left the Guardian high and dry, not to mention the Labour Party.

 

[pb21]

Cabinet split threatens to derail May’s Brexit talks

Leaked memo reveals Whitehall tensions

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...eatens-to-derail-may-s-brexit-talks-hxfwmv2td

This is the primary reason the Tory party want to plough on with Brexit. They started off saying there doesn’t need to be a vote, they lost that battle, and now they are saying that there doesn’t need to be a vote yet. I would have thought there would be, time will tell…

They want to avoid any debate regarding Europe as the party is fundamentally split on the issue.

That is the main driver at the moment affecting Brexit, not the referendum result, not ‘Brexit means Brexit’, but internal Tory politics, much like what led to the referendum in the first place.

 

[yxee]

Government saying they "don't recognise" the leaked document. Hmmm.

Interesting.

"The leaked memo - written by an un-named consultant and entitled 'Brexit Update' of 7 November"

 

[Titanic]

Government saying they "don't recognise" the leaked document. Hmmm.

It was written by Deloitte - no doubt pitching their 'consultants' for some of the 30,000 jobs!

 

[Guinness Boy]

As Pastafarian and Footy Genius repeatedly explained the claims made by Project fear merchants on the back of comments made by members of the French government were unlikely to be true.

Theresa May and Francois Hollande agree that border controls in Calais will stay despite Brexit

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...rancois-hollande-french-president-demands-pm/

Quelle surprise

That article pre-dates the BBC one. And Hollande won't be president much longer. It's as meaningless as the one you're purporting to debunk.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

That article pre-dates the BBC one. And Hollande won't be president much longer. It's as meaningless as the one you're purporting to debunk.

That article is relevant to the project fear claims being made pre referendum. To recap. A serving French minister stated if we left the EU, borders would be returned and Hollande standing next to Cameron said there would be consequences re Calais. Project Fear proponents (gullible fools is a bit strong) on NSC even quoted their opinions as I recall. In relation to the comments of an aide to a current Presidential candidate,I would treat them with equal caution.

 

[Two Professors]

The border will be moved to Perpignan when Le Pen becomes President.