[Politics] Brexit

[beorhthelm]

Several things could derail May, firstly the investigation into fraud at the last election could wipe out the Tories majority over night...

you mean the undeclared expenses? thats gone a bit quiet, i imagine it will lead to the same punishment as Labour had for their expenses problems, a fine and told to sit in the corner. think you're overlooking that bar Europe the conservatives can happily rally round to pass other legislation. we'll see how the back benchers respond to the Autumn Statement, bit more important for general national politics than the Brexit sideshow.

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

http://opinionbee.uk/polls/westminster/pollofpolls?20161107

Con: 41.5
Lab: 27.3
UKIP: 11.6
LDem: 9.1
Grn: 4.2

#bonkers

These polls don't take into account that if we did have an early GE it would be fought on each parties stance on Brexit, the Tories would inevitably need to provide some detail and it is bound to annoy either the right or moderate of the party losing votes to UKIP and the Lib Dems. Whilst UKIP have leadership issues a GE fought on Brexit terms would motivate them like nothing else. Whilst Labour are a shambles I also think they could come up with a stance to unite behind, the Tories are more divided on this.

So I don't think it would be as clear cut as the current polls show.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

No it doesn't, she doesn't explicitly say 'leaving the single market'.

She explicitly states all the other stuff, also rather ironically "Our laws made not in Brussels but in Westminster."!

Its not just what people do say, its also what they dont.

Agree with your last sentence.

How many members of the Single market don't have to submit to ECJ rulings or accept free movement?

 

[GT49er]

That's just a list of good things.

So what's not to like?


Other than an absence of a commitment which some would like, to keep re-running referendums until they get the 'right' result.

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

So what's not to like?


Other than an absence of a commitment which some would like, to keep re-running referendums until they get the 'right' result.

I don't think anybody wants that other than the Lib Dems and failure Owen Smith, however a lot of people would like some proper democratic accountability.

 

[smeg]

Wonder when this thread will get merged? JC, what is so upsetting to you about "free movement" seems to be a real bone of contention for you personally?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Wonder when this thread will get merged? JC, what is so upsetting to you about "free movement" seems to be a real bone of contention for you personally?

I'm mentioning it because it is relevant to membership of the Single market as is remaining under ECJ jurisdiction which some people don't seem to realise.

 

[pb21]

Agree with your last sentence.

How many members of the Single market don't have to submit to ECJ rulings or accept free movement?

Hang on, she doesn't say anything about free movement either, just 'control of immigration'. Bearing in mind this is the same May who as Home Secretary said in an interview in April this year with Andrew Marr that we already have control of our borders as it stands!

AM: Alright. But it’s had no effect really on the numbers, raw numbers of people coming in, which remains enormous. Let me read you what Michael Gove said about that. He said that the latest announcement from the Treasury, ‘is an official admission that if we stay in the EU, then immigration will continue to increase by hundreds of thousands year on year. More than 250,000 people came to Britain from Europe last year. As long as we’re in the EU we cannot control our borders.’ And that is all factually true, isn’t it?

TM: Well, actually control of our borders and immigration policy are two different things. Crucially, inside the European Union we’re not part of this area that’s called the Schengen area. What does that mean? It’s a border-free zone that a number of countries have.

AM: I understand that.

TM: We have control of our borders so we can decide

AM: We don’t have control – we don’t have control of our borders, Home Secretary. People living inside the EU can come and move in here as and when they want, as they do in huge numbers every single year. That’s not control of our borders.

TM: No, Andrew, you are conflating immigration policy and free movement with control of our borders. People are checked – no, control of our borders means we can stop people entering the United Kingdom, which we can. But crucially, we can only do that if we’ve got the information we need to have.

AM: Sorry. We can’t stop members of the – citizens of other EU countries from coming to the UK.

TM: We can make judgements about people and whether they should be coming into the United Kingdom. That’s why it’s important we have control at or borders...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/24041602.pdf

You are reading things that arent there or just hoping that's what she said!

 

[GT49er]

I don't think anybody wants that other than the Lib Dems and failure Owen Smith.

I think a whole lot of remainers would like that, but are keeping quiet - either because they have accepted the vote, or because they know it won't happen and they'll just look like sad remoaners if they keep calling for one.
I also think many conservative and nearly all labour MPs would like it too, but are keeping quiet for political expediency (they don't want to risk losing their seats).
I agree though that very few are actually coming out and saying it!

 

[GT49er]

You are reading things that arent there or just hoping that's what she said!

Hang on - you are quoting things said before we voted for Brexit!

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Hang on, she doesn't say anything about free movement either, just 'control of immigration'. Bearing in mind this is the same May who as Home Secretary said in an interview in April this year with Andrew Marr that we already have control of our borders as it stands!

You are reading things that arent there or just hoping that's what she said!

Nice try at obfuscation ... and the answer to my question was?

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

She's facing something that no other prime minister has faced....She's doing just fine considering all the "in" gloom merchants are crying like babies and will always attempt to make things difficult.Not to mention she's actually bigging up our country with positivity while the doom merchants are making us look like a bunch of pussies and that includes many of the mp's who're bitter because they want a piece of the EU gravy train.
It will all fall in place as I'm bored shitless of hearing people like Corbin banging on about she doesn't know what she's doing....she does and I have faith in her delivering what's required.It seems we're awash with lefty socialists nowadays who're derailing things because they always seem to be right all the bloody time....twats!!

I think you've got a very jaundiced view of the world, and wonder if you are actually paranoid. (P.S. along with many other Leavers, including Nigel Farage.)

But just because you've got a persecution complex doesn't mean the bar stewards aren't out to get you.

The first part of this reply is serious, the second a joke.

 

[Soulman]

It would be very unwise for May to give out too much information at the moment.

 

[Seasidesage]

Does she know what she is doing? Clearly not. To be fair to her how could she? 4 months ago everyone expected a remain vote and she was Home Secretary. By definition this is being done on the hoof, no plan in place for leaving and from what we have seen so far very little thought on the matter either.

The trade visit to India is a shambles and shows clearly that every other country is going to see how weak our bargaining position is and will use that to try and gain advantages for their country. We are in deep shit here and whoever leads us is going to struggle to sell even a tolerable settlement to the people after the EU negotiation. My guess would be that 3 years from now, we will have a Tory government but May won't be it's leader and we will be in the midst of a serious and long lasting recession.

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

It would be very unwise for May to give out too much information at the moment.

I agree because a lot of people in this country would probably find the plans her and her Brexit clowns have dreamed up for us are deeply unpalatable, bur she intends to press on with them anyway in the most cack-handed way possible.

 

[pb21]

Nice try at obfuscation ... and the answer to my question was?

On the contrary I'm not obfuscating I'm trying to make the situation clearer. And in addition your question is irrelevant as the basis of it is false.

You seem to think she has explicitly stated we will leave the single market and end free movement.

She hasn't. In addition her idea of control of immigration is what we already have.

I am pointing out that what you quoted her as saying is in itself an act of obfuscation.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

I think we are in a weak and vulnerable position and other countries are going to feast on that. We are not bargaining from a position of strength. She's on a hiding to nothing. I should feel sorry for her but I don't. I feel sorry for the less well off who are going to bear the brunt of the price inflation heading their way to add to their problems caused by austerity.

 

[Blue3]

I have always felt we as a nation were able to ride the waves of the worlds ups and downs whilst being active members of the worlds top tables, but for the first time in my life 57 years I really think we are f*****

 

[JC Footy Genius]

On the contrary I'm not obfuscating I'm trying to make the situation clearer. And in addition your question is irrelevant as the basis of it is false.

You seem to think she has explicitly stated we will leave the single market and end free movement.

She hasn't. In addition her idea of control of immigration is what we already have.

I am pointing out that what you quoted her as saying is in itself an act of obfuscation.

The question is entirely relevant which is why you won't answer it.

Membership of the single market requires submitting to numerous conditions including ECJ jurisdiction and free movement so when the PM says "The authority of EU law in this country ended forever .... But let’s state one thing loud and clear: we are not leaving the European Union only to give up control of immigration all over again. And we are not leaving only to return to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. That’s not going to happen." she can only mean ending single market membership.

Indeed EU officials have even said access to the single market would mean complying with these conditions ...

 

[pb21]

Hang on - you are quoting things said before we voted for Brexit!

Yep, I'm quoting May saying that in April 2016, prior to Brexit, we have control of our borders; something she says she wants in September 2016, post Brexit.

Well in her mind we already have control, so on that basis nothing will necessarily change.