Like pretty much any national team manager from big football nations then... pretty flawed reasoning when you look at previous World Cup winning teams and all or most of their defenders come from really big clubs.
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[Football] Arsenal’s Ben White
- Thread starter Paulie Gualtieri
- Start date
Like pretty much any national team manager from big football nations then... pretty flawed reasoning when you look at previous World Cup winning teams and all or most of their defenders come from really big clubs.
Garry Nelson's Left Foot
Well-known member
Your best example of England NOT 'choking' is a game that they were absolutely in control of, failed to push for a second goal, and coughed up an equaliser in the 93rd minute??
No, it's winning a penalty shoot out for the first time in over 20 years.
I'm not here to defend Southgate, I'm just responding to Stat Bro suggesting that England have choked at every available opportunity. They haven't.
Again, I'm not here to defend Southgate, the world cup is pretty much the only line of credit he has. There are plenty of ways to attack him but the 'choking' one isn't. At least not 'choking at the first available opportunity'.
Good point.
and here's me thinking we were talking about England, England's team selection and England's failings in major tournaments.
Oh how wrong I was.
Oh how wrong I was.
And then its pretty normal to compare to how others done it, no?
You say its a bad thing to pick defenders from big clubs because they dont defend a lot over a season. Yet pretty much every World Cup/Euro winning team got defenders from big clubs..
Are Mings and Coady really from big clubs though?
Nope. Meaning by Stat Brother logics, they should be starting ahead of Stones & Maguire.
Green Cross Code Man
Wunt be druv
I am, like you, not his biggest fan. He is an idiot.
He should think about making definitive comments. He's a fool.
No, I agree. Henderson though, if available for (say) the last group game onwards would still be someone I'd want in the squad. He's a good leader in a team that doesn't really have any. If however, any player is a risk for the while tournament, then you're spot on. Waste of a place in the squad.
With Maguire, he's an odd one. He's clearly one of Southgate's mainstays. He's probably the only defender he'd play 100% of the time when fit, so I get him leaving it to the last minute to decide, but he's barely played a minute in the last month, so he's technically out of both form and fitness going into a major tournament.
The problem is, Southgate has had ALL SEASON to test White and Godfrey. They'll likely both be staying at home because he's wasted his friendlies playing the same old players. He learns nothing new from seeing Stones mess up and Maguire look like a slow oaf of a defender.
Eric Youngs Contact Lens
Well-known member
This issue for Southgate has been building and building.. His free hit was the World Cup 2018, and our progress to a semi-final has given him credit despite the manner of our exit and the poor performances vs. sides of any note. His quotes on "form and fitness" are making this selection very difficult for him personally and he is in danger of backing himself into a very dark corner with Maguire/Henderson. He will quote his recent exclusion of TAA as an example of sticking to that "form/fitness" principle, but he has found himself at a junction that many England managers in recent years have come up against.. he knows what he should do, but the fear is making him hold out for as long as possible to select "experience" over form and fitness. He will argue that Maguire and Henderson "deserve" the chance to prove their fitness, but inside he will hope that the decision is not his to make, maybe even hoping that they rule themselves out - he has nowhere to run as he has already signalled they can go by including them at this point. He will also be afraid because his back-up, certainly in defence, is ropey.
I can see Ben White being kept IF numbers allow, but if he is, it is likely that its because Maguire, Henderson and maybe even Phillips are not 100% fit.
I can see Ben White being kept IF numbers allow, but if he is, it is likely that its because Maguire, Henderson and maybe even Phillips are not 100% fit.
England’s Ben White
Nail on head.
It’s a shame as when Southgate took over he did state his promise and did start to pick players based on merit, on form. As others have said, something changed as he’s reverted to generic England manager picking the same old names. So tired and predictable.
Ignoring the Dunk situation White should have a cap already, he should absolutely have been evaluated by our England head coach at this point. And I’ll go out on a limb and say Webster should have been looked at as well. Ditto Lamptey, one of the most exciting wing backs in Europe, but that could be excused as he’s been injured for a while.
There are some things to like with Southgate, I respect his trust in his players. But I look at the situation with Dunk / Webby / White / Lamptey and I wonder what other players have been inexcusably ignored.
Nail on head.
It’s a shame as when Southgate took over he did state his promise and did start to pick players based on merit, on form. As others have said, something changed as he’s reverted to generic England manager picking the same old names. So tired and predictable.
Ignoring the Dunk situation White should have a cap already, he should absolutely have been evaluated by our England head coach at this point. And I’ll go out on a limb and say Webster should have been looked at as well. Ditto Lamptey, one of the most exciting wing backs in Europe, but that could be excused as he’s been injured for a while.
There are some things to like with Southgate, I respect his trust in his players. But I look at the situation with Dunk / Webby / White / Lamptey and I wonder what other players have been inexcusably ignored.
Quite right. I'd forgotten that they re-branded friendlies to the Nations League
Irrespective of who he takes the one thing Southgate wants most is Maguire and Stones at the back.
Neither injury, form, or an episode of Banged Up Abroad will ever get in the way of that.
The English central defenders at England's best clubs just aren't up to it, they certainly aren't above the rest.
I'm struggling to think of a back 4 (5) that's been truly world class.
We either have 1 or 2 capable of winning something then not much else.
Or one perma-injured great.
Or, like now, 4 players for one position and flawed elsewhere.
It's always a car crash of shoehorning in big name players at the expense of ability.
Neither injury, form, or an episode of Banged Up Abroad will ever get in the way of that.
The English central defenders at England's best clubs just aren't up to it, they certainly aren't above the rest.
I'm struggling to think of a back 4 (5) that's been truly world class.
We either have 1 or 2 capable of winning something then not much else.
Or one perma-injured great.
Or, like now, 4 players for one position and flawed elsewhere.
It's always a car crash of shoehorning in big name players at the expense of ability.
albionalex
Well-known member
To be fair, given that it was Godfrey's 2nd season and White's first season at PL level, it may have been premature to call them up previously.
The Beeb have heard J-Lingz is out. With Greenwood, that's 5 left to exclude.
Assuming that Henderson, Maguire & Phillips are passed fit (or Southgate wants them along for the ride anyway), could the 5 excluded include only one centre-back? . .. .
1. keeper (Johnstone)
2. midfielder (Ward-Prowse)
3. right back (TAA)
4. centre back (Godrey)
5. striker (Watkins)
Assuming that Henderson, Maguire & Phillips are passed fit (or Southgate wants them along for the ride anyway), could the 5 excluded include only one centre-back? . .. .
1. keeper (Johnstone)
2. midfielder (Ward-Prowse)
3. right back (TAA)
4. centre back (Godrey)
5. striker (Watkins)
Some outlets are now stating as fact that Ward Prowse has been told he's not going.
Greenwood out makes me think Watkins might make it.
Who’s against the lads?
Agreed.
Russia 2018 was ****ing fantastic - most fun England has had at a major tournament since 1996.
We've got a pretty likeable bunch of players, a lot of whom are fairly key players playing at the top level, club wise. There's every reason to be looking forward to the Euros.