Zero hours contracts.

[Doc Lynam]

I work for G4S and they are used alot by them.
I work within the patient transport side of things, i and everyone who works in the office are on full time contracts as we to an extent are inexpendible, but a minority but slowly growing number (especially new recruits) are on zero hour contracts (on the road staff)

A drivers wage starts at £8.56 p/h rising to £9.60 something depending on experience, that to me is no way a living wage. I earn more than that per annum, and im still fairly young, no children to pay for, just rent & bills etc. Though i can save a bit, its not like i am rolling in money. Our drivers by and large are middle aged with families etc. Not only are the wages crap in general but if you dont even know week to week if you are working or not, this much cause alot of strain and worry on oneself.

Though on the flip side, you should know what you are getting yourself into when signing these kind of contracts.

Again what sort of contract is a zero hrs contract? To the employe its nothing its not worth the paper its written on.

 

[HawkTheSeagull]

Zero-hour contracts are vital in the Hospitality industry, as then staff can work as needed basically and I have previous experience of working with people on these contracts from a hotel in London, most of the ones I know had other jobs and took up the extra hours when needed really.

Thing is, you know what you are signing up for when you sign the contract. You cant just sign it, then moan that you have no hours as you know exactly what you are going in for. They offer flexibility to employers and should only really be used for when you have other jobs (EG a current part-time job).

It isnt exploitation at all, if you dont want to risk not having any hours, dont bloody go for the job. If these contracts didnt exist, then "X hour contract" workers will be stretched to the limit at busy periods.

 

[seven stands]

Albion’s catering partner, Sodexo, are recruiting for the following matchday positions.

Kiosk Staff (18+)
Kiosk team Leaders (18+)
Bar Staff (18+)
Bar Managers (18+)
Kitchen Porters
Chef du Partie
Restaurant Managers

Due to alcohol licensing laws, candidates must be over 18 for a number of these roles.

All positions are initially offered on a zero hour basis and are matchday positions only.

Read more at http://www.seagulls.co.uk/news/article/matchday-staff-required-906415.aspx#Sj7XPXRi1IhfSZDm.99

 

[jakarta]

I understand how Self Employment works only to well, but don't see the comparison you are making! Self employment comes about because one has a skill or trade that enables them to work independently. People who work zero hrs are doing jobs that can be filled by anybody that is the point, there is no security because the employer knows they can fill the post with the next desperate individual.

If they are doing 'jobs that that can be filled by anybody' then the obvious thing for them to do is to upgrade their skills then?

 

[Doc Lynam]

Zero-hour contracts are vital in the Hospitality industry, as then staff can work as needed basically and I have previous experience of working with people on these contracts from a hotel in London, most of the ones I know had other jobs and took up the extra hours when needed really.

Thing is, you know what you are signing up for when you sign the contract. You cant just sign it, then moan that you have no hours as you know exactly what you are going in for. They offer flexibility to employers and should only really be used for when you have other jobs (EG a current part-time job).

It isnt exploitation at all, if you dont want to risk not having any hours, dont bloody go for the job. If these contracts didnt exist, then "X hour contract" workers will be stretched to the limit at busy periods.

How did hotels run before zero hrs? They used to employ more staff all year round, this has reduced levels of fulltime employes. Its great for the hotels they can budget each department and the mangers can hire staff on and off to suite the period, saving money. For the worker it's terrifying they don't know what the next weeks hrs will bring. Most of the people on these contract especially in the hotels are people from other countries within the EU, usually much poorer countries with no family or friends to help them. They sign to an agency usually as an introduction to hotel because zero hrs also lets the hotel see if they can work them like dogs and they wont complain. If they are "lucky" the hotel will take them on a new zero hrs contract directly through them, so the hotel loses less money paying an agency. It is exploitative and usually on people in socially vulnerable situations, but as for your example great for the hotel.

 

[Doc Lynam]

If they are doing 'jobs that that can be filled by anybody' then the obvious thing for them to do is to upgrade their skills then?

What happens if you speak very little or no English or do speak English but can't afford the money to go to night school because your wages barely cover rent?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Thing is, you know what you are signing up for when you sign the contract. You cant just sign it, then moan that you have no hours as you know exactly what you are going in for.

But some probably have little choice if there's no other work. And this is the issue, as employers are exploiting this situation.

 

[HawkTheSeagull]

How did hotels run before zero hrs? They used to employ more staff all year round, this has reduced levels of fulltime employes. Its great for the hotels they can budget each department and the mangers can hire staff on and off to suite the period, saving money. For the worker it's terrifying they don't know what the next weeks hrs will bring. Most of the people on these contract especially in the hotels are people from other countries within the EU, usually much poorer countries with no family or friends to help them. They sign to an agency usually as an introduction to hotel because zero hrs also lets the hotel see if they can work them like dogs and they wont complain. If they are "lucky" the hotel will take them on a new zero hrs contract directly through them, so the hotel loses less money paying an agency. It is exploitative and usually on people in socially vulnerable situations, but as for your example great for the hotel.

"Terrifying for the worker" ? They know EXACTLY what they are letting themselves in for and KNOW that hours arent certain (although in the hotel where I was at, functions were always regular except during the Summer so work was always available). A lot of the workers I admit are from foreign countries and would have other jobs. They dont get "worked like dogs", they work the hours THEY choose and such is the demand these days, shifts are always filled.

Best example for these are Waiters, of which at my hotel there was a pool of 500 - though at anyone time we could have had upto 3,000 in. As it was a 5-star hotel on Park Lane, the tips the staff got were brilliant and some of them only doing 15 hours a week were earning more than me who was doing 35 a week !! Agency work was only used in the kitchens, even then it was for long-term and were given the same hours as others. Its a myth that zero-hour staff are badly treated too, they are vital to companies at the end of the day. Pay is fairly decent as well, because of the unpredictability of the hours worked and the flexibility that would be needed.

As I said before, they arent "exploitive" - if you want a set amount of hours then dont apply for a zero-hour contracted role. Its a bit like applying to work as a butcher, get the job, then turn round and say that your a vegan and dont like touching meat, you know what your applying for - so if you dont like it - why apply ?

But some probably have little choice if there's no other work. And this is the issue, as employers are exploiting this situation.

But there is work available now, more so too. I was unemployed for a few months, when I accepted my current job a few months ago - I was offered it along with 3 others. Jobs are available and the "no jobs" phrase is a myth - there is always jobs out there, you just need to work hard to get them, what some people these days dont bother with unfortunately.

Also, there is no reason why you cant have 1 zero-hour contract with 1 company and another with another one (unless your contact says that of course, in which case that is wrong in all fairness).

 

[Barrel of Fun]

It isnt exploitation at all, if you dont want to risk not having any hours, dont bloody go for the job. If these contracts didnt exist, then "X hour contract" workers will be stretched to the limit at busy periods.

You are such an apologist. Whether it be southern trains or what have you.

These contracts exist because firms realise they can employ people and not take care of them.

 

[HastingsSeagull]

Welcome to the Self Employed experience - there is no particular reason why any of my Clients should employ me, there is certainly no 'Security' and I have no 'Union' to back me up.

I'm pretty good at what I do however and as a consequence most people who I have worked for over the past 20 years continue to use my services.

No doubt if someone better than me came on the scene they would use them and I would have to either accept this or up my game.

I don't get too upset about this, Employers/Clients have the money and service providers such as myself don't, it is a fact of life!

Very much this

 

[HawkTheSeagull]

You are such an apologist. Whether it be southern trains or what have you.

These contracts exist because firms realise they can employ people and not take care of them.

An apologist because I explain the companies view of things ? Alright then.

Should also be said that "casual" staff are generally zero-hour contracts as well. If your permanently employing people all the time for set hours a week, you will be throwing away s**tloads of money on staff that do nothing. I mean if you hired the Amex catering staff to do 7 contracted hours a week, then a couple of weeks a month they would be coming in to do nothing and they would need to be paid and of course the fans....sorry customers would be footing their wages.

If there is no zero-hour/casual contracts, then you can kiss goodbye to either food/drink at the Amex or the amount of money you are paying now as you would need to pay for staff to come in and do nothing.

 

[RexCathedra]

What about freedom of labour laws ?

"In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets, and steal loaves of bread." Anatole France.

 

[beorhthelm]

These contracts exist because firms realise they can employ people and not take care of them.

does this apply to the public sector, employers of professional contractors, bars or shops who want someone for a few hours? or do these contracts exist because they offer fexlibility to both employer and employee? lets not confuse bad employment practices with a type of employment contract.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

An apologist because I explain the companies view of things ? Alright then.

Should also be said that "casual" staff are generally zero-hour contracts as well. If your permanently employing people all the time for set hours a week, you will be throwing away s**tloads of money on staff that do nothing. I mean if you hired the Amex catering staff to do 7 contracted hours a week, then a couple of weeks a month they would be coming in to do nothing and they would need to be paid and of course the fans....sorry customers would be footing their wages.

If there is no zero-hour/casual contracts, then you can kiss goodbye to either food/drink at the Amex or the amount of money you are paying now as you would need to pay for staff to come in and do nothing.

Lord. I'm happy with casual work. It's brilliant work for students.

I'm talking about zero contracts in grown up work - http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.u...tory-19699344-detail/story.html#axzz2cplMf7vs - Stadium work is perfect for flexible/student work. The NHS?

 

[Barrel of Fun]

does this apply to the public sector, employers of professional contractors, bars or shops who want someone for a few hours? or do these contracts exist because they offer fexlibility to both employer and employee? lets not confuse bad employment practices with a type of employment contract.

My personal experience of public sector work is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to get sacked. The management turn a blind eye to theft, bullying, avoiding work hours, misusing overtime and generally being lazy *******s. Just a small sector of something that is clearly rife across the board.

 

[Doc Lynam]

"Terrifying for the worker" ? They know EXACTLY what they are letting themselves in for and KNOW that hours arent certain (although in the hotel where I was at, functions were always regular except during the Summer so work was always available). A lot of the workers I admit are from foreign countries and would have other jobs. They dont get "worked like dogs", they work the hours THEY choose and such is the demand these days, shifts are always filled.

Best example for these are Waiters, of which at my hotel there was a pool of 500 - though at anyone time we could have had upto 3,000 in. As it was a 5-star hotel on Park Lane, the tips the staff got were brilliant and some of them only doing 15 hours a week were earning more than me who was doing 35 a week !! Agency work was only used in the kitchens, even then it was for long-term and were given the same hours as others. Its a myth that zero-hour staff are badly treated too, they are vital to companies at the end of the day. Pay is fairly decent as well, because of the unpredictability of the hours worked and the flexibility that would be needed.

As I said before, they arent "exploitive" - if you want a set amount of hours then dont apply for a zero-hour contracted role. Its a bit like applying to work as a butcher, get the job, then turn round and say that your a vegan and dont like touching meat, you know what your applying for - so if you dont like it - why apply ?



But there is work available now, more so too. I was unemployed for a few months, when I accepted my current job a few months ago - I was offered it along with 3 others. Jobs are available and the "no jobs" phrase is a myth - there is always jobs out there, you just need to work hard to get them, what some people these days dont bother with unfortunately.

Also, there is no reason why you cant have 1 zero-hour contract with 1 company and another with another one (unless your contact says that of course, in which case that is wrong in all fairness).

I don't discount your experiance at all but these are also true.

Zero hr for Hotels:

Alot of them as you've said speak very little English and don't understand the contracts they are entering or how loose they are.

Some of the zero hr agency will only let you work for them if you pay them for "training" none of it on the books.
Some zero hr agencies will only give you more hrs once you have got into a contract if you rent a property from them again these are very vulnerable people who don't know what they are entering into.

They are usually convinced by telling them outside of the contract that they have no need to worry because they can guarantee regular work.
They can't.

They might not get worked like dogs during a shift but the amount of hrs they are asked to work when hotels are busy can be inhuman ive know over 100 hrs a week to be done. Largely due to lack of job security and fear of getting on the wrong side of an employer/ agency.

Most of them are on just above minimum wage and tips get put into a pot and dived between the management and full time staff, zero hrs don't get a look in.
Most hotels run on bonuses at the end of the week or month so tips can be ac-crude that are paid by card, again zero hrs won't see any of this. Full time staff only and then its down to the managers discretion how much he/she chooses to pay.

There hourly pay would be higher but unbeknown to them sometime a hotel manager has worked a sweetener deal with the agency so he/ she gets a small cut for every hr the zero worker performs this will come out of the workers wage. This is to keep a particular agency employed at the hotel.

Many of them due to their lack of English feel they have no other options but to enter into this work.

 

[HawkTheSeagull]

Lord. I'm happy with casual work. It's brilliant work for students.

I'm talking about zero contracts in grown up work - http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.u...tory-19699344-detail/story.html#axzz2cplMf7vs - Stadium work is perfect for flexible/student work. The NHS?

Happy with Casual but not happy with Zero-hour contracts Both are pretty much the same thing, just worded differently. Casual staff get given zero-hour contracts as they have no set hours so work when needed - again the example of the Amex catering staff can be used.

The NHS use them because of the vast amount of staff needed, again - they work when they want to work and many would have other jobs and if certain wards are "quiet", then permanent staff would move over to other areas and the casual/bank staff wont be needed. On the flip side, if additional staff are needed as wards are full, then the casual/bank staff would be used. Though of course in the NHS, hours are always available of course.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

If a company has a variable amount of work available every day of the week (and a firm that does coach hire would be a good example), it can be extremely difficult to offer employment contracts that guarantee a fixed number of hours, or even the times or days that work will be available. But a good employer will want to retain good, trained, skilled staff and will endeavour to ensure that staff remain satisfied with the amount of work that is offered, across a period of time. Sickness, holidays and occasional reluctance by some/all staff to work whenever called upon (because of life outside work) will also complicate the situation. Technically, employment contracts will likely look much the same as a zero-hours contract, but the system might be well administered. It doesn't have to be exploitative of the workforce - but it has to reflect the vagaries of the business realities faced by the firm.

 

[HawkTheSeagull]

I don't discount your experiance at all but these are also true.

Zero hr for Hotels:

Alot of them as you've said speak very little English and don't understand the contracts they are entering or how loose they are. Some of the zero hr agency will only let you work for them if you pay them for "training" none of it on the books. Some zero hr agencies will only give you more hrs once you have got into a contract if you rent a property from them again these are very vulnerable people who don't know what they are entering into.
They are usually convinced by telling them outside of the contract that they have no need to worry because they can guarantee regular work.
They can't.
They might not get worked like dogs during a shift but the amount of hrs they are asked to work when hotels are busy can be inhuman ive know over 100 hrs a week to be done. Largely due to lack of job security and fear of getting on the wrong side of an employer/ agency.
Most of them are on just above minimum wage and tips get put into a pot and dived between the management and full time staff, zero hrs don't get a look in.
Most hotels run on bonuses at the end of the week or month so tips can be ac-crude that are paid by card, again zero hrs won't see any of this. Full time staff only and then its down to the managers discretion how much he chooses to pay.
There hourly pay would be higher but unbeknown to them sometime a hotel manager has worked a sweetener deal with the agency so he/r gets a small cut for every hr the zero worker performs this will come out of the workers wage.
Many of them due to their lack of English feel they have no other options but to enter into this work.

Services are available to explain work contracts, but if they dont bother to get things clarified then to be honest its their own fault. Ive never heard of the "pay for training" side of it, but the contracts in my experience arent used for complicated skilled jobs and what you need to know gets taught over a short period. Again ive never heard of the "rent a property" side either, though that does sound fairly unbelievable.

Any responsible company should say (in the hotel example) "we do regularly need staff for functions, but hours cannot be guaranteed", if not then that is wrong. NO company would ever ask staff to work over 100 hours a week and the most I have heard of is 50, though that is optional. Some contracts will also have a "maximum" amount of hours too - possibly 38 for example. Different places work differently, but tips do add on a fair bit to wages, depending on the "class" of hotel you could even pretty much earn double the amount. From my experience, tips in cash go direct to that staff member but card tips get added to a "pot" and split between all staff including backroom (chefs for example).

Of course if zero-hour staff perform well, then they are much better placed to receive a full-time position should the job come up.

They arent all not English though, some of course are but a large number are English, possibly students or just people looking to earn a bit more money.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Happy with Casual but not happy with Zero-hour contracts Both are pretty much the same thing, just worded differently. Casual staff get given zero-hour contracts as they have no set hours so work when needed - again the example of the Amex catering staff can be used.

The NHS use them because of the vast amount of staff needed, again - they work when they want to work and many would have other jobs and if certain wards are "quiet", then permanent staff would move over to other areas and the casual/bank staff wont be needed. On the flip side, if additional staff are needed as wards are full, then the casual/bank staff would be used. Though of course in the NHS, hours are always available of course.

Casual work and zero hours are different. Let's get rid of the football analogy. Is a casual job at a football ground a 'zero hour contract'? The zero hour contract is based around being 'on call' not pre-planned work.