[Albion] You're the ref: Veltman v Rice

[aolstudios]

Jordan doesn't do himself any favours by saying the referee didn't see Joao Pedro kicking the ball away. Souness quite rightly picked him up on that. Souness also calls out Veltman for 'misbehaving' (much the same as McCoist did). Doubt many ex-pros would think differently

Like Souness never 'misbehaved'

 

[Professor Plum]

Both are guilty of what used to be called ‘ungentlemanly conduct’. The ref should either penalise both or neither.

If you’re adamant about following the letter of the law then be consistent and feel annoyed at Albion players committing small transgressions (not taking throws and free kicks from the right place) and larger ones (feigning injury to waste time, diving for penalties etc).

If a ref never showed any discretion, football would be a nightmare and most games would finish with 8 players on each side.

I can tell you that from where I was sitting at the Emirates (a long way from the incident, admittedly), when the ref hoisted that red card, nearly everyone round me thought it was Veltman being sent off.

The long and short of it for me is that the ref should have gone over, told both players to get a grip, and got on with the game without any cards being shown. As Albion benefited from what the ref actually did, part of me wants to applaud the decision but if I’m really honest I think we, and Veltman, were quite fortunate.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Both are guilty of what used to be called ‘ungentlemanly conduct’. The ref should either penalise both or neither.

If you’re adamant about following the letter of the law then be consistent and feel annoyed at Albion players committing small transgressions (not taking throws and free kicks from the right place) and larger ones (feigning injury to waste time, diving for penalties etc).

If a ref never showed any discretion, football would be a nightmare and most games would finish with 8 players on each side.

I can tell you that from where I was sitting at the Emirates (a long way from the incident, admittedly), when the ref hoisted that red card, nearly everyone round me thought it was Veltman being sent off.

The long and short of it for me is that the ref should have gone over, told both players to get a grip, and got on with the game without any cards being shown. As Albion benefited from what the ref actually did, part of me wants to applaud the decision but if I’m really honest I think we, and Veltman, were quite fortunate.

Disagree completely.

Rice is 100% guilty of a yellow card offence. He's admitted so himself. He's kicked the ball away, to prevent the free kick being taken.

Veltman's actions are more subjective - but he is not guilty of any yellow card offence. If the ref considers that he deliberately aimed a kick at Rice, then he has committed a RED card offence. If the ref considers that the contact was purely down to Rice putting his foot illegally where the ball should have been - then he's committed no offence at all.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Both are guilty of what used to be called ‘ungentlemanly conduct’. The ref should either penalise both or neither.

If you’re adamant about following the letter of the law then be consistent and feel annoyed at Albion players committing small transgressions (not taking throws and free kicks from the right place) and larger ones (feigning injury to waste time, diving for penalties etc).

If a ref never showed any discretion, football would be a nightmare and most games would finish with 8 players on each side.

I can tell you that from where I was sitting at the Emirates (a long way from the incident, admittedly), when the ref hoisted that red card, nearly everyone round me thought it was Veltman being sent off.

The long and short of it for me is that the ref should have gone over, told both players to get a grip, and got on with the game without any cards being shown. As Albion benefited from what the ref actually did, part of me wants to applaud the decision but if I’m really honest I think we, and Veltman, were quite fortunate.

Agree with all of this.

We definitely got a a favourable decision.
But all of the players were told that Refs were clamping down on delaying a restart.

Veltman was clearly paying more attention during the PGMOL presentations than Rice was.

 

[Jim in the West]

Both are guilty of what used to be called ‘ungentlemanly conduct’. The ref should either penalise both or neither.

If you’re adamant about following the letter of the law then be consistent and feel annoyed at Albion players committing small transgressions (not taking throws and free kicks from the right place) and larger ones (feigning injury to waste time, diving for penalties etc).

If a ref never showed any discretion, football would be a nightmare and most games would finish with 8 players on each side.

I can tell you that from where I was sitting at the Emirates (a long way from the incident, admittedly), when the ref hoisted that red card, nearly everyone round me thought it was Veltman being sent off.

The long and short of it for me is that the ref should have gone over, told both players to get a grip, and got on with the game without any cards being shown. As Albion benefited from what the ref actually did, part of me wants to applaud the decision but if I’m really honest I think we, and Veltman, were quite fortunate.

It's called "Unsporting behaviour". Under this heading, Veltman could potentially have been guilty of "committing in a reckless manner a direct free kick offence" - which would have been a yellow card. The ref could possibly have seen Veltman's actions as "serious foul play" or "violent conduct" - which would have been red card offences. As HKFC has pointed out above, the ref obviously considered that the actions of Rice, in kicking the ball away, meant that Joel ended up kicking through thin air. Having watched it multiple times it seems pretty clear that, if Rice hadn't kicked the ball away, Veltman would have kicked the ball. So definitely NOT "unsporting behaviour". And neither is Rice guilty of "unsporting behaviour" he got his card for "delaying the restart of play". It's remarkable how sensible these decisions seem once you actually read the rules of the game

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

It's called "Unsporting behaviour". Under this heading, Veltman could potentially have been guilty of "committing in a reckless manner a direct free kick offence" - which would have been a yellow card. The ref could possibly have seen Veltman's actions as "serious foul play" or "violent conduct" - which would have been red card offences. As HKFC has pointed out above, the ref obviously considered that the actions of Rice, in kicking the ball away, meant that Joel ended up kicking through thin air. Having watched it multiple times it seems pretty clear that, if Rice hadn't kicked the ball away, Veltman would have kicked the ball. So definitely NOT "unsporting behaviour". And neither is Rice guilty of "unsporting behaviour" he got his card for "delaying the restart of play". It's remarkable how sensible these decisions seem once you actually read the rules of the game

Amazing how Veltman is such a successful exponent of the Dark Arts that he even managed to fool a large number of our fans. No way was Joel going to miss out on the chance to kick Declan Rice up in the air in full view of a weak ref while of course protesting full-on angelic choirboy innocence. Meanwhile the ex-pros (McCoist, Crouch, Souness) knew exactly what he did

 

[Greg Bobkin]

Micah Richards spouting subjective nonsense aided and abetted by Lineker

Tell me you've got a podcast to fill and need the clicks and likes to feed the algorithm without telling me, etc etc.

I normally don't mind Micah - I know loads don't - but he's talking absolute nonsense and actually gets himself tied up in his own argument about if it was a free kick or if it wasn't!

 

[mikeyjh]

It's called "Unsporting behaviour". Under this heading, Veltman could potentially have been guilty of "committing in a reckless manner a direct free kick offence" - which would have been a yellow card. The ref could possibly have seen Veltman's actions as "serious foul play" or "violent conduct" - which would have been red card offences. As HKFC has pointed out above, the ref obviously considered that the actions of Rice, in kicking the ball away, meant that Joel ended up kicking through thin air. Having watched it multiple times it seems pretty clear that, if Rice hadn't kicked the ball away, Veltman would have kicked the ball. So definitely NOT "unsporting behaviour". And neither is Rice guilty of "unsporting behaviour" he got his card for "delaying the restart of play". It's remarkable how sensible these decisions seem once you actually read the rules of the game

From the outside, I thought Rice was a bit silly but your suggestion that Veltman 'would have kicked the ball' is made through the bluest of blue tinted glasses - He only would have kicked the ball had it spontaneously jumped about 18 inches in to the air and he intended to volley it halfway to Islington!

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

Amazing how Veltman is such a successful exponent of the Dark Arts that he even managed to fool a large number of our fans. No way was Joel going to miss out on the chance to kick Declan Rice up in the air in full view of a weak ref while of course protesting full-on angelic choirboy innocence. Meanwhile the ex-pros (McCoist, Crouch, Souness) knew exactly what he did

Indeed. Amazing what bias does.

Poor innocent Joel was just trying to take a quick free kick.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

It's interesting because we have a scenario where our player was looking to kick the ball and wipe out an opposition player with it but ended up getting none of the ball because the home player got his foot to the ball first. That's 'dark arts'

Meanwhile at the Amex we have a scenario where a player was looking to kick the ball and wipe out an opposition player with it but ended up getting none of the ball because the home player got his foot to the ball first. That player was vile and played for Crawley.

 

[Berty23]

From the outside, I thought Rice was a bit silly but your suggestion that Veltman 'would have kicked the ball' is made through the bluest of blue tinted glasses - He only would have kicked the ball had it spontaneously jumped about 18 inches in to the air and he intended to volley it halfway to Islington!

This is wrong. Veltman’s kick would have been a clean strike if the ball was where it should have been. You can see from this pic sequence that his foot is where a foot would be to kick a ball on the ground. I am not disputing he obviously kicked rice on purpose but he would 100% have kicked a ball on the ground.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

This is wrong. Veltman’s kick would have been a clean strike if the ball was where it should have been. You can see from this pic sequence that his foot is where a foot would be to kick a ball on the ground. I am not disputing he obviously kicked rice on purpose but he would 100% have kicked a ball on the ground.

And it would have been brought back for a rolling ball.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

It's interesting because we have a scenario where our player was looking to kick the ball and wipe out an opposition player with it but ended up getting none of the ball because the home player got his foot to the ball first. That's 'dark arts'

Meanwhile at the Amex we have a scenario where a player was looking to kick the ball and wipe out an opposition player with it but ended up getting none of the ball because the home player got his foot to the ball first. That player was vile and played for Crawley.

Yes, great comparison. The two incidents really are EXACTLY the same.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

Yes, great comparison. The two incidents really are EXACTLY the same.

Thank you.

 

[Berty23]

It's interesting because we have a scenario where our player was looking to kick the ball and wipe out an opposition player with it but ended up getting none of the ball because the home player got his foot to the ball first. That's 'dark arts'

Meanwhile at the Amex we have a scenario where a player was looking to kick the ball and wipe out an opposition player with it but ended up getting none of the ball because the home player got his foot to the ball first. That player was vile and played for Crawley.

But the incident vs Crawley the ball was live. Our player had every right to kick the ball and some time later he was clattered. In this instance the ball was dead so rice had no business kicking it off the pitch. Those two situations are even less comparable that the Pedro throw in incident to the rice booking.

 

[Berty23]

And it would have been brought back for a rolling ball.

Correct. It would. Which is why Rice is even more of a mug for kicking it when no need. Until Veltman kicks the moving ball he has not committed the offence of kicking the moving ball.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

And it would have been brought back for a rolling ball.

And again - entirely irrelevent.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

And again - entirely irrelevent.

Do you HONESTLY believe poor Joel just wanted to take the quick free kick and didn't think he would get ANY of the player standing directly in front of it?

Genuinely?

The ball rolling is relevant. A professional football knows you don't take a rolling free kick. It's more proof he knew exactly what he was doing so makes the argument of "the ball was there for the quick free kick until Rice kicked it away" redundant as any player would know that free kick wasn't ready to take.

Taking that kick, of a rolling ball, was only done for one reason. He achieved it. I laughed. It helped us. But please PLEASE let's not kid ourselves over what JV was doing.

 

[dazzer6666]

This is wrong. Veltman’s kick would have been a clean strike if the ball was where it should have been. You can see from this pic sequence that his foot is where a foot would be to kick a ball on the ground. I am not disputing he obviously kicked rice on purpose but he would 100% have kicked a ball on the ground.

He’s entitled to a full follow-through

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

Correct. It would. Which is why Rice is even more of a mug for kicking it when no need. Until Veltman kicks the moving ball he has not committed the offence of kicking the moving ball.

Absolutely. I agree.