York Mosque shows the way for all of us

[Seagull Stew]

Why have the Muslim community not done more to condemn the attacks?
Well here is the opinion on a Muslim on the response to the attack which explains the feeling in the Muslim community.....or a load of bullshit excuses depending on your viewpoint of course.

http://www.assedbaig.com/2013/05/woolwich-and-muslim-response.html

Woolwich and the Muslim Response
The murder in Woolwich has shocked everyone, no one was prepared for such a killing on the streets of the UK. The response has been of disgust and condemnation. This incident has raised some questions that politicians and the mainstream media have conveniently dodged. I am disgusted and appalled by what has taken place, but why should I have to condemn or apologise for such a crime, it had nothing to do with me.

Why is it that Muslims and Muslim organisations are expected to condemn and distance themselves from the actions of two individuals? Why is it that Muslim organisations do not even need to be prompted to condemn; they are readily condemning actions that have nothing to do with them. There has been no attempt by Muslim organisations to discuss the causes of the attack, no attempt to question the mainstream media narrative that imposes labels on Muslims.

I was born and brought up in a majority Muslim area of Birmingham. I have travelled the country and the world. I have come across thousands of Muslims, spoken, debated and challenged opinions. Radicalisation is not a religious problem, it is a problem of society, and specifically, in this case, British society.

Muslim leaders have been scared into silence. Prevent officers visiting mosques and community leaders frighten them. They are told that if Muslims display any political opinions outside the mainstream then they are extremists, that if they do not inform on them, that their bank accounts can be frozen, mosques closed and they could face prison. Muslims are afraid. Muslim organisations and leaders are subservient to the state, scared to mention foreign policy as a radicalising factor just in case they are harangued for justifying the murder. It has got to such a state that we do not even realise that our minds have been conditioned through years of media misrepresentation and widespread Islamophobia. Questioning the reason for a murder does not mean condoning or justifying it. Condemning something that has nothing to do with you feeds into the narrative that this is a Muslim problem, that this is something that the Muslim community are responsible for, at least in part.

In turn so-called Muslim leaders stifled debate and discussion in mosques, too afraid to discuss anything political. For too long they have played a subservient role to the state, asking for a seat at the table and hoping for crumbs to be passed to them. I have not met a Muslim that has condoned the actions in Woolwich, but let’s not ignore what radicalises. British foreign policy radicalises, double standards radicalise, making Muslim youngsters feel like their opinions are not legitimate radicalises, stifling debate and discussion radicalises, not giving people a conduit to vent their opinions and frustrations radicalises, a lack of identity in Britain radicalises, we are either extremists or moderates.

We are told that Muslims are equal citizens in this country but the reality is something very different. If we say we don’t drink, we are labelled anti-social or not willing to integrate, if we drink we are labelled moderate, if a Muslim wears a hijab, she is oppressed, if she doesn’t she is liberated, if we express an opinion outside of the mainstream narrative, we are angry, if we join a mainstream political party we are passionate, if we sing the praises of the British establishment we are liberals, if we object to foreign policy we are extremists or Islamists. I for one am fed up of this apologetic and subservient tone. I have nothing to apologise for, I should not be asked to condemn the actions of two men that had nothing to do with me just as a white man should not be asked to condemn the murders committed by Anders Brevik or for the violent actions of the English Defence League.



Have Muslims not proved their worth to this country? Muslims have bled for this country during WWI and WWII, they have fought for Empire, they have served as colonial subjects, they have waved the flags, sang the anthems and anglicised their names –Mo and Ed. But still we are not accepted; we still hear ‘Muslim appearance’ in the mainstream media, which basically means non-white, not one of us.


I am privileged, I went to university, I had an abundance of left-wing white friends that never questioned my opinions because of my religion or ethnicity, that accepted me as an equal, and made me feel that I had a place in society, we shared our politics as well as our battles.

My parents still fear that I will be arrested for writing and expressing an opinion as a journalist. I have been inundated with calls since the attack from Muslims that are afraid of a backlash, one even asked me if there would be ethnic cleansing. I told them not to be afraid because I had faith in the British people to see through the fog that politicians and mainstream media perpetuate.

Why is it that Joe Glenton can say that foreign policy is a radicalising factor but our so-called Muslim leaders tiptoe around the issue? Why is it that George Eaton can say that Muslims should not have to distance themselves from the attacks, but our so-called leaders are falling over themselves to do it? Why is it that Glenn Greenwald can question whether the attack is terrorism, but my fellow brothers and sisters are afraid to do the same?

I was born here, I am British, I am standing in the tradition that says that my opinion is just as valid as anyone else’s, that I have a right to object to the hypocritical treatment vented out to Muslims without being accused of condoning or justifying such attacks. There are Muslims that will disagree with me, that is fine, we must understand that we are not a homogenous group, Anjum Choudry and his motley crew do not represent me, neither do the Muslim Council of Britain with their 400 affiliated mosques run by old men in committees. Unfortunately non-Muslims in the public sphere represent my views more than our so-called Muslim leaders.

To be ‘leaders’, senior Muslim figures must lead. Whilst politicians and the media carry on scapegoating Muslims, a true community leadership must face up to the reality of foreign policy and suppression of Muslim communities over the last decade, and call it out for what it is.

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An excellent piece. Muslims have as much reason to apologise for the actions of these evil individuals as I, as a former DJ, have a reason to apologise for the actions of Jimmy Saville!

 

[User removed 4]

Don't waste your time with this loser. He has one argument, and one accusation, which he hurls at everyone me included. Further more he has been shown up to be a total bullshitter; giving it the big one on here, claiming this that and the other (in a very childish playground style), before I decided to post his private emails a few years later which totally contradicted what he'd said. Bullshit Bushy is a nobody, just ignore the angry little man.

bullshitter ? I've turned up on your doorstep before and you shit yourself yourself and went crying to nsc admin, let me ask you , when are you next back from your safe haven in Berlin ? When you are , how about we meet up and you can say all of this to my face , this is a direct question , there is no room for prevarication or sliding out of it , are you willing to say this to my face next time you're over , yes or no ?

 

[User removed 4]

Have you ever lived in East London or anywhere like it !
I did for 10 years so before making ridiculous comments like that you prat, have a think about what other people HAVE actually experienced , you may have too but so have others. IDIOT !!!!

Yes I spent five years in plaistow and two years in bow , I was born in london and have spent most of my life there , where did you live ? In fact one evening game next season when I haven't got my kids with me you can meet me and tell me , you can also call me a prat and idiot to my face

 

[User removed 4]

Sorry Bushy lets pin you down. You do make some valid points but would you agree that what York Mosque did is what should be happening. Simple yes or no please.

I will answer this sully , but I've got to rush out to a kids football tournament now.

 

[King of Birds]

Well, this has taken a turn for the sinister hasn't it. Can we all chill back and have a cuppa please?

So far, most of these threads have pretty much amounted to two polarised camps who are accusing each other of failing to see any merit in either of their arguments, previous history blinding some to any validity, whilst the rest of us scratch our heads and get a little more depressed by it all.

It's good these things are being discussed, but I think some sort of mutual respect and tolerance is needed on here as much as it is in our country and the wider world right now.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

I will answer this sully , but I've got to rush out to a kids football tournament now.

OK. Looking forward to it

 

[User removed 4]

Have you ever lived in East London or anywhere like it !
I did for 10 years so before making ridiculous comments like that you prat, have a think about what other people HAVE actually experienced , you may have too but so have others. IDIOT !!!!

In fact I'll tell you EXACTLY what you " have actually experienced" , you moved to London from the country full of the excitement of "going to live in the big city" , you spent ten years there , mostly living it up as a single man, paying pretty scant attention to the realities of living there permanently, understandably ,why would you,it was never permanent for you , maybe met a bird and then smugly relocated back to crowborough , do you really think that your relatively short sojourn compares to someone who grew up there and DOESN'T have the option of moving back to their leafy Sussex suburb ?

 

[BadFish]

Bingo!!!!!!

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

A superb piece this morning from my old friend and president of the York Mosque, Mohammed El-Gomati. Who can disagree with him?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/31/edl-english-defence-league-york-mosque

 

[User removed 4]

OK. Looking forward to it

I just don't think that devout muslims fit in in this country mate , you see that I use the word devout , muslim lites such as yourself obviously do , but most people really have nothing in common with people who pray five times a day , don't drink etc , and don't particularly enjoy seeing women dressed in a pretty sinister fashion , ie the full veil/ burka , do you HONESTLY think that the large concentrations of Muslims in the northern mill towns , Birmingham, London etc are a success story ? I just think we are storing up trouble for the future with this lack of integration ,and before anyone comments on whites not making any efforts , why on earth should they ?? Muslims CHOSE to come here , it's up to them to change ,not the other way round.

 

[BadFish]

I just don't think that devout muslims fit in in this country mate , you see that I use the word devout , muslim lites such as yourself obviously do , but most people really have nothing in common with people who pray five times a day , don't drink etc , and don't particularly enjoy seeing women dressed in a pretty sinister fashion , ie the full veil/ burka , do you HONESTLY think that the large concentrations of Muslims in the northern mill towns , Birmingham, London etc are a success story ? I just think we are storing up trouble for the future with this lack of integration ,and before anyone comments on whites not making any efforts , why on earth should they ?? Muslims CHOSE to come here , it's up to them to change ,not the other way round.

I feel exactly the same about Christians.

 

[User removed 4]

I feel exactly the same about Christians.

What a childish ,puerile, ill thought out reply, I will guarantee that your lifestyle has more in common with a devout Christian than a muslim, in fact the more I look at your post the more laughable it appears.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

bullshitter ? I've turned up on your doorstep before and you shit yourself yourself and went crying to nsc admin, let me ask you , when are you next back from your safe haven in Berlin ? When you are , how about we meet up and you can say all of this to my face , this is a direct question , there is no room for prevarication or sliding out of it , are you willing to say this to my face next time you're over , yes or no ?

You really do have a limited repertoire dont you? We went through this tiresome doorstepping charade a month ago. And you came out the other side a proven liar with about 5 posters saying they lost respect for you.

When the search engine is up and running again I'll find the link to save us both having to go through this tedious routine again.

 

[King of Birds]

The challenge for us all right now is to try and understand where the more extreme mind sets from both Islamic fundamentalists and the far right EDL and their supporters come from. We're all shaped by our experiences; a white person growing up in an inner city area where they feel more and more marginalised and threatened is going to have some of the same anger as a British Muslim feeling helpless as he sees his 'brothers' being killed by an army of occupation abroad. Most of us have neither experience to draw from, so can only try to imagine how that must feel. If we imagine, try to understand, we can begin to empathise. If we can begin to empathise we collectively ensure that we don't become so polarised and divided by the need to join one clan or the other as to tip the scales dangerously toward sectarianism. The lessons of history are there for us all to see and learn from. There will always be those who can't be reasoned with, on both sides. They are a significant minority who should not be ignored, but the ones we really need to worry about are the moderates now being drawn towards extremism by recent and on going events.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

oh, its the little nazi wannabe...was that you giving the Nazi salute, opposite a British womens memorial, with the other EDL morons in Whitehall, when cherishing Drummer Lee Rigbys memory at the weekend?

clueless dave , just ****ing clueless
regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

The challenge for us all right now is to try and understand where the more extreme mind sets from both Islamic fundamentalists and the far right EDL and their supporters come from. We're all shaped by our experiences; a white person growing up in an inner city area where they feel more and more marginalised and threatened is going to have some of the same anger as a British Muslim feeling helpless as he sees his 'brothers' being killed by an army of occupation abroad. Most of us have neither experience to draw from, so can only try to imagine how that must feel. If we imagine, try to understand, we can begin to empathise. If we can begin to empathise we collectively ensure that we don't become so polarised and divided by the need to join one clan or the other as to tip the scales dangerously toward sectarianism. The lessons of history are there for us all to see and learn from. There will always be those who can't be reasoned with, on both sides. They are a significant minority who should not be ignored, but the ones we really need to worry about are the moderates now being drawn towards extremism by recent and on going events.

A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD BE MORE THAN INTERESTED IN DEMONSTRATING WITH THE EDL,TAKE AWAY THE PISS HEADS AND ARM WAVERS AND YOU'LL FIND A LOT MORE PREPARED TO JOIN THE RANKS
regards
DR

 

[King of Birds]

A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD BE MORE THAN INTERESTED IN DEMONSTRATING WITH THE EDL,TAKE AWAY THE PISS HEADS AND ARM WAVERS AND YOU'LL FIND A LOT MORE PREPARED TO JOIN THE RANKS
regards
DR

Not sure what the capitals is all about, but I agree, and that is what we need to be concerned about and address.

 

[BuddyBoy]

A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD BE MORE THAN INTERESTED IN DEMONSTRATING WITH THE EDL,TAKE AWAY THE PISS HEADS AND ARM WAVERS AND YOU'LL FIND A LOT MORE PREPARED TO JOIN THE RANKS
regards
DR

So the point here is: violent 'street fascism' not attractive. Populist nationalism very much so. There's UKIP for that, you see. People are, regrettably, already joining those 'ranks'

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Not sure what the capitals is all about, but I agree, and that is what we need to be concerned about and address.

nothing to be concerned about as it's about time anyone who has concerns about the way this country's heading stood their ground
regards
DR

 

[King of Birds]

nothing to be concerned about as it's about time anyone who has concerns about the way this country's heading stood their ground
regards
DR

I disagree. The EDL and Islamic Fundamentalists are the flip sides of the same coin; followers of doctrines of intolerance and hate. When moderate people start to be drawn to these causes it is time to worry a great deal. Like I said, learn from history.