Yet another piece of UKIP brilliance

[somerset]

...... it's the pro-EU crowd, especially on here, who will put up with anything as long as the money keeps rolling in. Good capitalists, that they are.

I tend to think that the Pro-Eu crowd on here are of the left persuasion, socialists more often than not.....in most cases far from supporting the Capitalist ethos.

 

[Buzzer]

I tend to think that the Pro-Eu crowd on here are of the left persuasion, socialists more often than not.....in most cases far from supporting the Capitalist ethos.

I was being sarcastic. You're right, they do tend to be left-wingers who moan about the political right's obsession with money but the paradox of the EU debate is as I said, it's the anti-EU that are putting principles before the euro and it's the pro-EU crowd who are obsessed with Britain's trade as if nothing else matters.

I am anti-EU (also very anti-UKIP too) because I think it's a corrupt and failed institution that is no good for us. I want self-determination and if we as a nation struggle then so be it, but we are then masters of our own destiny.

 

[Finchley Seagull]

I was being sarcastic. You're right, they do tend to be left-wingers who moan about the political right's obsession with money but the paradox of the EU debate is as I said, it's the anti-EU that are putting principles before the euro and it's the pro-EU crowd who are obsessed with Britain's trade as if nothing else matters.

That's an impressive way to misread the situation. Let's be honest, it's pretty clear that if the pros/cons of leaving the EU were laid out and that we were going to lose a lot of money from trade, most people would be in favour of staying in the EU. As there's not been a clear set of pros/cons, people don't know what we'd lose so just look at the scaremongering and follow it. It is a sad situation and one that would be avoidable if we had a fair and impartial press. Sadly, that is never going to happen so we're stuck with this debate and may well leave the EU in the future and regret it.

 

[El Presidente]

I was being sarcastic. You're right, they do tend to be left-wingers who moan about the political right's obsession with money but the paradox of the EU debate is as I said, it's the anti-EU that are putting principles before the euro and it's the pro-EU crowd who are obsessed with Britain's trade as if nothing else matters.

I am anti-EU (also very anti-UKIP too) because I think it's a corrupt and failed institution that is no good for us. I want self-determination and if we as a nation struggle then so be it, but we are then masters of our own destiny.

A further paradox is that if the EU is a failed institution, why do the economic models suggest that GDP and jobs would be higher if we remain in it?

 

[Buzzer]

That's an impressive way to misread the situation.

Have I misread it? I think every pro-EU commentator in this thread mentions the risk of trade if we pull out. Personally, I think it's a risk worth taking in return for self-rule and free from the institutionally corrupt EU and its many executive bodies. If you read Cunning Fergus, then he also puts this case forward extremely eloquently.

 

[Buzzer]

A further paradox is that if the EU is a failed institution, why do the economic models suggest that GDP and jobs would be higher if we remain in it?

It's a failure in relation to its original objectives as a free trade organisation. I happen to think that the ceding of political and legal powers to a central European body are steps too far.

 

[El Presidente]

It's a failure in relation to its original objectives as a free trade organisation. I happen to think that the ceding of political and legal powers to a central European body are steps too far.

I think that it's been successful as a free trade organisation, and like that it has stood up to globalisation and monopoly abuse from the likes of Microsoft and the US government.

What I don't like is careerist politicians and bureaucrats who have tried to extend the powers of the EU beyond those which benefit trade for the benefit of their own dogma and futures.

I do find it odd to be called left wing though, given that

a) I'm a Chartered Accountant
b) My constituency MP is George Osborne, and
c) I read The Financial Times and The Economist

 

[somerset]

What I don't like is careerist politicians and bureaucrats who have tried to extend the powers of the EU beyond those which benefit trade for the benefit of their own dogma and futures.
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Merkel and Schulz yes,...

 

[sahel]

I think that it's been successful as a free trade organisation, and like that it has stood up to globalisation and monopoly abuse from the likes of Microsoft and the US government.

What I don't like is careerist politicians and bureaucrats who have tried to extend the powers of the EU beyond those which benefit trade for the benefit of their own dogma and futures.

I do find it odd to be called left wing though, given that

a) I'm a Chartered Accountant
b) My constituency MP is George Osborne, and
c) I read The Financial Times and The Economist

Hang on a minute! It's the UK that is out of step not the "careerist politicians andbureaucrats". It was clear right from the start that the EU was a political project. What do think "ever closer union " means. The UK might see it as just trade but others in Europe never have and have made no secret of that. I think the EU is a great idealistic idea and I am beginning to think it can only be successful if the UK leaves it. De Gaulle never wanted us in because he thought we would wreck it - perhaps he was right.

 

[Buzzer]

De Gaulle never wanted us in because of his dislike of the British.

 

[El Presidente]

De Gaulle never wanted us in because of his dislike of the British.

I thought it was because we bathed more than once a month.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

You need to move outside your little bubble of smugness regarding the EU. I don't think you've any idea just how unpopular the EU and in particular Merkel/Germany are across the rest of the EU populace. The Latin countries in particular cannot stand her, they regard Germany as the bullying big brother who, because they control the money, control them also. They certainly don't feel equal partners in the Euro experiment. The rise of extremism across the whole of Europe is a direct result of the attitude of the political elite that you adore and who share your contempt for the ordinary European proles too thick, too stupid, too racist to be a cosmopolitan, good European like yourself.

The latin countries you refer to certainly felt part of the "Euro experiment" when they were reaping the benefits of access to low-cost borrowing to fund all manner of projects. It turned out sour for some just like it did for the UK. The various countries you refer to did have options but preferred to stick with the EU and bail-outs. I admit I do not know all the ins and outs of every country but I am pretty certain if there was an overwhelming desire to leave then a anti-EU party and a road map would at the very least be in place or in sight by now especially in the hardest hit countries. Where does this idea that the latin countries despise Merkel come from? That's a pretty grand statement to make. Taking Greece as an example, and looking at the last election, the party with the most votes were supportive of the bail out. I'm not seeing the majority party in Italy against the EU bailout either. " bullying big brother who, because they control the money, control them also" yet there are not sufficient voters willing to change things. Why is this? I'm not saying there is no dissent, there clearly is, but I see nothing to suggest it is a majority intent on real change; lots of words but no action.

And the idea that the rise of extremism is a direct result of the EU is just ludicrous. I would expect better from you. Did you write this is a bit of a hurry?

And I am not smug; I see benefits and prefer to explore positives rather than sitting on my arse blaming others and moaning which is how I feel a lot of people are at the moment

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

It's a failure in relation to its original objectives as a free trade organisation. I happen to think that the ceding of political and legal powers to a central European body are steps too far.

Fine. I don't share the same view but the good news for you is that you have two parties you can vote for next year which have both pledged to change this.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Hang on a minute! It's the UK that is out of step not the "careerist politicians andbureaucrats". It was clear right from the start that the EU was a political project. What do think "ever closer union " means. The UK might see it as just trade but others in Europe never have and have made no secret of that. I think the EU is a great idealistic idea and I am beginning to think it can only be successful if the UK leaves it. De Gaulle never wanted us in because he thought we would wreck it - perhaps he was right.

Good points.

 

[Buzzer]

"Smugness" was rude and unnecessary. I apologise for that. I do think that you side with an elite who look with patrician eyes at the electorate though.

 

[Buzzer]

Fine. I don't share the same view but the good news for you is that you have two parties you can vote for next year which have both pledged to change this.

I'd never vote UKIP if that's what you mean. I dislike/distrust them as much as you. I can't see myself voting in the euro elections at all.

And I've previously said I'll probably vote for Caroline Lucas in a GE as a personal choice because although I don't agree with many of her policies, I do trust her and she's an excellent local MP.

 

[Buzzer]

Talking of De Gaulle, I came across this huge statue of him in Bucharest whilst on holiday s few weeks back. He looks like a waiter. What's that all about?

 

[El Presidente]

Talking of De Gaulle, I came across this huge statue of him in Bucharest whilst on holiday s few weeks back. He looks like a waiter. What's that all about?

Previously there had been statues of Hitler and Stalin in that square.

I think it was acknowledgement of De Gaulle's involvement in resisting the Nazi's during WW2.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

"Smugness" was rude and unnecessary. I apologise for that. I do think that you side with an elite who look with patrician eyes at the electorate though.

I'll accept your apology Highlighting the benefits of the EU you get called smug. Highlighting the downfalls you get called a Little Englander

I do support the EU and Labour but I do not see them as patricians looking down on the electorate. I choose my affiliations based on who I feel can provide the best inclusion, opportunity and fairness and to me both these groups do this. Given this, in my mind, they are the opposite of what you suggest. Neither are perfect but to me they offer the best chance of delivering what I want.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So people vote for a party because it gets picked upon? Jesus. This certainly helps my argument that UKIP voters are idiots.

No but it stiffens the resolve to vote for the party exactly because people are so unable to engage in political discussion and instead decide to throw around childish insults. Maybe if I called all Germans Nazis it might hammer home what a daft generalisation your post is.