WW II could we have won without the Muslims?

[Chicken Runner61]

long winded effort to what's really a simple answer ,muslims helped but over all Hitlers obssesions and fighting two super powers USA/USSR was only going to end one way , give some credit to the German armed forces for trying to hold the line against all odds.

Oh and if Hitler had let Rommel win N Africa and gain control of the Med and waited to fight the Russians, USA might not have got involved until it was way too late and Germany would probably controlled the whole middle east, Greece and turkey soaking up all the oil and resources that came with it. Controlling that amount of Europe would have given the USA a problem where to start from. You are also forgetting that the yanks also had a problem with Japan brewing.

 

[beorhthelm]

I'd go along with all of that - but not so sure about the oil though.

I've read that the Germans were running low generally and it was touch and go if they ran out of fuel a lot of the time - Driving those tanks through fast for Blitzkreig must have used up loads of fuel and although I understand they had some supplies of oil in and around germany they were reliant on Russia and Turkey. Fuel must have come from refineries in germany and getting the crude there in the first place must have been a problem and I'm not sure how they got it through by sea or road ? Did they have pipelines then? If it came by sea they must have come through the baltic or some how through the Black Sea region.

I also understand Standard Oil USA was supplying them right through the war so how did that get there?

Also another mystery is how much oil was coming from N africa? Loads came via Suez region at that time but is that why Italy (and then Germany) & us were fighting over it? again I understand that we were pretty ignorant at that time at where the oil was and there did not seem to be plants or refineries there.

As oil seems to be the major factor in wars today I find it fascinating how must have played a part then and those who fail to learn from history are bound to repeat it!

i believe oil was a major issue in WWII, being the first mechanised war. as i understand it, German had/has relativly bugger all oil reserves and relied on some process of distillation from coal which they have in abundance, though its horribly inefficient (needs lots and burns lots to manufacture). I recall there is a theory that instead of pushing for Moscow, the Germans went south for Ukraine and the Black Sea, in order to gain access to the oil fields there (and open a route to the middle east too). im pretty sure Saudi fields were open then and we relied on the shipments though the Med.

im not sure what you source about Standard Oil is. You should be careful about claims of companies involved with the Third Reich, which overlook that the German branch of these companies were effectivly nationalised with no link to their parent. Stanard Oil ceased to be a company in 1911, so cannot possibly have had any involvement.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Oh and if Hitler had let Rommel win N Africa and gain control of the Med and waited to fight the Russians, USA might not have got involved until it was way too late and Germany would probably controlled the whole middle east, Greece and turkey soaking up all the oil and resources that came with it. Controlling that amount of Europe would have given the USA a problem where to start from. You are also forgetting that the yanks also had a problem with Japan brewing.

all if's and But's mate , we all know the end result .

 

[portlock seagull]

Oh and if Hitler had let Rommel win N Africa and gain control of the Med and waited to fight the Russians, USA might not have got involved until it was way too late and Germany would probably controlled the whole middle east, Greece and turkey soaking up all the oil and resources that came with it. Controlling that amount of Europe would have given the USA a problem where to start from. You are also forgetting that the yanks also had a problem with Japan brewing.

Japan's overalling strategy towards the USA was to force it towards the negotiating table. When the day of infamy came and the USA chose to fight until the bitter end, then the technocrats of Japan, not the imperial militarists who eventually hanged, knew Japan had mad a massive error of judgement.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Japan's overalling strategy towards the USA was to force it towards the negotiating table. When the day of infamy came and the USA chose to fight until the bitter end, then the technocrats of Japan, not the imperial militarists who eventually hanged, knew Japan had mad a massive error of judgement.

slight understatement don't you think.

 

[portlock seagull]

slight understatement don't you think.

I haven't time to write a thesis and many more qualified than I to make such judgements. But as a keen student of history, and WW2 in particular, it's essentially the view of those such as Sir Max Hastings who's works I hold in high regard and (sorry to name drop) whom I was actually speaking to in person only 4 weeks ago on this very matter

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

I haven't time to write a thesis and many more qualified than I to make such judgements. But as a keen student of history, and WW2 in particular, it's essentially the view of those such as Sir Max Hastings who's works I hold in high regard and (sorry to name drop) whom I was actually speaking to in person only 4 weeks ago on this very matter

nice one.

 

[Theatre of Trees]

i believe oil was a major issue in WWII, being the first mechanised war. as i understand it, German had/has relativly bugger all oil reserves and relied on some process of distillation from coal which they have in abundance, though its horribly inefficient (needs lots and burns lots to manufacture). I recall there is a theory that instead of pushing for Moscow, the Germans went south for Ukraine and the Black Sea, in order to gain access to the oil fields there (and open a route to the middle east too). im pretty sure Saudi fields were open then and we relied on the shipments though the Med.

Germany's only source of oil was Romania and Hungary which I think supplied around 2 million barrels a year whereas the Allies were getting 10 from the Middle East and America. Consequently, only part of of the German war machine was fully mechanised with some parts still reliant on horses. You are correct on the southward expansion where they were aiming for the oil fields in the Caucausus around Maikop.

 

[Chicken Runner61]

i believe oil was a major issue in WWII, being the first mechanised war. as i understand it, German had/has relativly bugger all oil reserves and relied on some process of distillation from coal which they have in abundance, though its horribly inefficient (needs lots and burns lots to manufacture). I recall there is a theory that instead of pushing for Moscow, the Germans went south for Ukraine and the Black Sea, in order to gain access to the oil fields there (and open a route to the middle east too). im pretty sure Saudi fields were open then and we relied on the shipments though the Med.

im not sure what you source about Standard Oil is. You should be careful about claims of companies involved with the Third Reich, which overlook that the German branch of these companies were effectivly nationalised with no link to their parent. Stanard Oil ceased to be a company in 1911, so cannot possibly have had any involvement.

Think you might have the wrong name or company

Unless its bull take a look here The True Cause of World War 2, WWII

I have also seen Standard Oil linked many times with other Oil companies at the time and read they were part of or owned IB Farben!!

 

[Chicken Runner61]

all if's and But's mate , we all know the end result .

Das - Its hard to envisage where you are going with this with your moniker but I will ask the question - what is the end result you think we all know?

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Max Hastings is a bit history-lite

 

[Gregory2Smith1]

why?

Marocchinate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[portlock seagull]

Germany's only source of oil was Romania and Hungary which I think supplied around 2 million barrels a year whereas the Allies were getting 10 from the Middle East and America. Consequently, only part of of the German war machine was fully mechanised with some parts still reliant on horses. You are correct on the southward expansion where they were aiming for the oil fields in the Caucausus around Maikop.

Indeed. Prior to the battle of Stalingrad hitler made a decisive blunder by dividing the southern army group into a & b; the latter to drive and capture the caucasian oil fields and the other to capture Stalingrad. This neither group was sufficiently strong to make the decisive blow. In fact one of the panZer armies attacking to oilfields ran dry for 3 weeks which enabled the soviets to mount critical counter attacks / reorganise. Such was the shortage of oil.

 

[beorhthelm]

Think you might have the wrong name or company

Unless its bull take a look here The True Cause of World War 2, WWII

yes, i was thinking of the original Stanfard Oil, rather than Standard Oil of New York, i didnt realise they used that name (now Mobil apparently). though i will point out that the source is exactly the sort im talking about, with a very particular view on the world and history (see intro).

 

[Chicken Runner61]

yes, i was thinking of the original Stanfard Oil, rather than Standard Oil of New York, i didnt realise they used that name (now Mobil apparently). though i will point out that the source is exactly the sort im talking about, with a very particular view on the world and history (see intro).

Yes there is a lot of misinformation out there but I have seem the Standard Oil stuff elsewhere and with George Bush linked too. I would also add that whilst the link stinks now at the time it might not have seemed too bad

 

[8ace]

It could have been a different story if Muslamic Ray Guns had been invented back then

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Das - Its hard to envisage where you are going with this with your moniker but I will ask the question - what is the end result you think we all know?

defeat for Germany and the end of WW2 and the start of the cold war.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Indeed. Prior to the battle of Stalingrad hitler made a decisive blunder by dividing the southern army group into a & b; the latter to drive and capture the caucasian oil fields and the other to capture Stalingrad. This neither group was sufficiently strong to make the decisive blow. In fact one of the panZer armies attacking to oilfields ran dry for 3 weeks which enabled the soviets to mount critical counter attacks / reorganise. Such was the shortage of oil.

Whereas all this is true, my original point was that at the time of Dunkirk - which was before Germany started to head east towards Russia - they had sufficient impetus, eqipment and access to oil and fuel in western europe to embark on invading the UK.
In the longer term, Germany's inability to secure the oil fields in south/east europe and middle east was a significant factor in their ultimate defeat.

 

[portlock seagull]

Whereas all this is true, my original point was that at the time of Dunkirk - which was before Germany started to head east towards Russia - they had sufficient impetus, eqipment and access to oil and fuel in western europe to embark on invading the UK.
In the longer term, Germany's inability to secure the oil fields in south/east europe and middle east was a significant factor in their ultimate defeat.

Absolutely spot on.

Moreover, the most critical contribution to WW2 that Britain made was not in respect to winning it, which Russia by far has the strongest case. But by not losing it in May 1940. Few realise how precarious a situation we were in during those 5 critical days in May. And I'm not talking about the Dunkirk beaches, but the events in the British war cabinet. It's a fascinating read if you want to read it Five Days in London, May 1940: Amazon.co.uk: John Lukacs: Books.

Don't forget to link via NSC though!!

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

In the end, WW II victory was a bit of a team effort really.