[Misc] Will the Unions bring everyone to their knees?

[WATFORD zero]

I am in support of the industrial action.
However, working in the railway industry and demanding Sunday’s as overtime is ludicrous and should have been stopped years ago. Like other public facing operations.

Personally I’d make Sundays compulsory but at an enhanced rate. That’s fair.

Well that would be because it is complete bullshit. See my post here, highlighting 'the mistake' then the reply that 'I'm probably right' immediately followed by a further repeat of the exact same bullshit, and all in a single post.

I always thought that Sundays were one of three different statuses on the railways but they are all rostered

Inside Normal Working
Outside Normal Working (Voluntary)
Outside Normal Working (Committed)

and were different by company and role within company (and history of how you were employed !). I'd be interested where you got your info from if I've been wrong all this time,

Thanks

thats more specific info than i have so you're probably right.

Forcing people to work weekends is not 'modernisation' - it is a regressive step that attempts to push working back decades (France, for example, banned Sunday working in 1812 and made Sunday a mandatory rest day in 1906 - indeed there were laws on the Frence statute books preventing Sunday working going back to 1388).

Any change results in Sunday working not being voluntary - and a pay cut for the workers.

thats nice except the public want to use the railway at the weekends. people often complain about poor service to Falmer on Sunday matchdays, now we know why.

But I'm sure it isn't intentional, someone is probably just confused. However, keep repeating it often enough and stupid people will believe it, but frankly, I'm a little surprised at you. I'm guessing a bad day

And just in case anybody still wants to believe it

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tocs-with-sundays-in-working-week-drivers-guards.225946/

Took 30 seconds on Google

 

[Eric the meek]

Well that would be because it is complete bullshit. See my post here, highlighting 'the mistake' then the reply that 'I'm probably right' immediately followed by a further repeat of the exact same bullshit, and all in a single post.



But I'm sure it isn't intentional, someone is probably just confused. However, keep repeating it often enough and stupid people will believe it, but frankly, I'm a little surprised at you. I'm guessing a bad day

And just in case anybody still wants to believe it

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tocs-with-sundays-in-working-week-drivers-guards.225946/

Took 30 seconds on Google

Reading down that link you gave, it is clearly a patchy, inconsistent, administrative and logistical nightmare. Is that the legacy of privatisation?

Some of the staff are 'inside', some 'outside' and some are living the vida loca. Others don't seem to know what the f*ck is going on and give several different answers.

I recommend a pay rise of 10% to the first person in the HR department to work out an acceptable compromise to all. What's that? There are multiple HR departments? F*ck me, I'm out.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Reading down that link you gave, it is clearly a patchy, inconsistent, administrative and logistical nightmare. Is that the legacy of privatisation?

Some of the staff are 'inside', some 'outside' and some are living the vida loca. Others don't seem to know what the f*ck is going on and give several different answers.

I recommend a pay rise of 10% to the first person in the HR department to work out an acceptable compromise to all. What's that? There are multiple HR departments? F*ck me, I'm out.

But Shirley you must be mistaken. It's very simple, I have been told

something i've learnt following this dispute is all Sunday service is done on overtime. one of the modernisations is to bring Sunday into the weekly rostered hours.

 

[The Clamp]

Well that would be because it is complete bullshit. See my post here, highlighting 'the mistake' then the reply that 'I'm probably right' immediately followed by a further repeat of the exact same bullshit, and all in a single post.



But I'm sure it isn't intentional, someone is probably just confused. However, keep repeating it often enough and stupid people will believe it, but frankly, I'm a little surprised at you. I'm guessing a bad day

And just in case anybody still wants to believe it

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tocs-with-sundays-in-working-week-drivers-guards.225946/

Took 30 seconds on Google

My bad. I need to do more research.

 

[Deleted member 2719]

Trade unions, big boys coining it in.
£500,000 a year.
Poor old Grant Shapps dwarfs their salaries.
https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/rail_union_bosses_take_home_500_000_in_pay_and_perks

Taking the Mick and the Cash.

 

[beorhthelm]

Well that would be because it is complete bullshit. See my post here, highlighting 'the mistake' then the reply that 'I'm probably right' immediately followed by a further repeat of the exact same bullshit, and all in a single post.



But I'm sure it isn't intentional, someone is probably just confused. However, keep repeating it often enough and stupid people will believe it, but frankly, I'm a little surprised at you. I'm guessing a bad day

And just in case anybody still wants to believe it

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tocs-with-sundays-in-working-week-drivers-guards.225946/

Took 30 seconds on Google

you're wierd, i accept i was wrong, and you still want to pick an argument. your link shows many rail workers are on Sunday overtime, and says Sunday work is overtime on Southern, albeit enforced. so i dont know why its bullshit. was just based on following various news, tweets, forums, that a complaint is loss of Sunday overtime.

 

[Springal]

Trade unions, big boys coining it in.
£500,000 a year.
Poor old Grant Shapps dwarfs their salaries.
https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/rail_union_bosses_take_home_500_000_in_pay_and_perks

Taking the Mick and the Cash.

Tax payers alliance ? [emoji23]

And £3K car allowance - wow. You’d get better car allowance working for Canon flogging print solutions.

FYI in 12 months Grant Shapps claimed £170k in expenses. Including £1800 ‘working from home allowance’ - he’s only 19 miles from constituency to parliament

 

[drew]

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1541428622627594243?s=20&t=DjGjGGds2t_gxV4LiPFvaw

Apologies if this has already been posted on this thread but nice of Nandy demolishing Gove.


(haven't a clue how to embed a tweet!!)

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The Trade Unions came in to existence because of things like the gross injustices of wealthy landowners cutting the wages of agricultural workers in places like rural Dorset when they were on worse than subsistence pay already: try looking up and reading about the Tolpuddle Martyrs, who were wrongly convicted of illegal assembly, deported to Australia, and then brought back after the huge public outcry about the injustice of it all.

There was a big Church involvement in all this as well. The Church of England was on the side of the Landowners, while five of the “martyrs” were Methodists, three of them being Methodist Local Preachers. I have been at the Tolpuddle Festival in July representing the Methodist Church many times over the years and twice have heard members of the Anglican Clergy apologising for their Churches part in it. The second time it was the Bishop of Salisbury doing the apologising. I have also heard Tony Benn twice from the stage at the same event say that the Trade Unions wouldn’t exist had it not been for the Methodist Church, who taught the Martyrs to read and write.

The Trade Unions came out of religious and faith convictions about justice and fairness, the same as much of what is going on at the moment if people were only to look at or listen to the detail of what is going on. Without them, even today, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

We won't have much of a discussion if [MENTION=2719]Mouldy Boots[/MENTION] refuses to acknowledge the reasons for, and consequent legitimacy of, trade unions.

I am happy to acknowledge the reasons for, and consequenty legitimacy of the owners of the means of production, and its representation, the conservative and unionist party.

So we have workers, and we have the owners of capital. They both have a legitimacy and indeed a range of self interests.

What I find hard to fathom is how workers can align themselves with, and entrust their self interest to the owners of capital. Mouldy, if you own a business and face labour simply as an employer, your instincts are understandable. If not, you have no right to tell workers to roll up their sleeves and get on with it. No right al all.

So where do you stand? It would be instructive to know.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

We won't have much of a discussion if [MENTION=2719]Mouldy Boots[/MENTION] refuses to acknowledge the reasons for, and consequent legitimacy of, trade unions.

I am happy to acknowledge the reasons for, and consequenty legitimacy of the owners of the means of production, and its representation, the conservative and unionist party.

So we have workers, and we have the owners of capital. They both have a legitimacy and indeed a range of self interests.

What I find hard to fathom is how workers can align themselves with, and entrust their self interest to the owners of capital. Mouldy, if you own a business and face labour simply as an employer, your instincts are understandable. If not, you have no right to tell workers to roll up their sleeves and get on with it. No right al all.

So where do you stand? It would be instructive to know.

Like you, I am well aware of and happy about the capitalist “model” and, through contact (meetings) on occasion with the Trade Unions at high level through my job before retirement aware of many examples of constructive engagement between employers and unions to develop sensible working practices in particular workplaces which were in everybody’s interests and which worked!

Obviously there are going to be mavericks and idiots on both sides, but it does seem to me that in most of the disputes in evidence at the moment the Union side does at least have a case and that the Government is being less than helpful in refusing to get involved and in fact stoking confrontation. I saw a clip of Mark Drakeford, the capable leader of the Welsh Assembly, saying as much because there is not a problem in Wales - they were grown up enough to get all interested parties together around a table and sort it out. If I can find it I will try and post a link.

Seeing yesterday on the news lots of bewigged barristers outside the Old Bailey brought it home - hardly a group which is known for its revolutionary zeal. It has been well known and obvious for a long time that there are major problems because of the government’s driving down of legal aid costs and that “ordinary” barristers can struggle to make ends meet. But alongside that you have our Prime Minister saying that to give public sector workers a 3% pay rise would be a waste of time because inflation would soon wipe it out - a comment which I saw described as economically illiterate.

If only people would talk to each other!

Edit: here’s a link to the Mark Drakeford thing mentioned above. Even this seems to show how “divided” things are.

https://nation.cymru/news/watch-rai...-keep-englands-railways-going-says-drakeford/

 

[Simster]

Trade unions, big boys coining it in.
£500,000 a year.
Poor old Grant Shapps dwarfs their salaries.
https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/rail_union_bosses_take_home_500_000_in_pay_and_perks

Taking the Mick and the Cash.

That headline is nothing more than meaningless attention seeking. The fact is, Mick Cash (as an example) is being paid £160k and If union members don't think they're getting value, they can vote him out.

Now £160k is a nice amount of money, no doubt, but it is an absolute pittance compared to Network Rail’s chief executive who pays himself £600,000. What exactly has he done for that? Where is YOUR outrage there?

 

[darkwolf666]

That headline is nothing more than meaningless attention seeking. The fact is, Mick Cash (as an example) is being paid £160k and If union members don't think they're getting value, they can vote him out.

Now £160k is a nice amount of money, no doubt, but it is an absolute pittance compared to Network Rail’s chief executive who pays himself £600,000. What exactly has he done for that? Where is YOUR outrage there?

It’s the same faux outrage that befell footballers and their wages during Covid.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

That headline is nothing more than meaningless attention seeking. The fact is, Mick Cash (as an example) is being paid £160k and If union members don't think they're getting value, they can vote him out.

Now £160k is a nice amount of money, no doubt, but it is an absolute pittance compared to Network Rail’s chief executive who pays himself £600,000. What exactly has he done for that? Where is YOUR outrage there?

Indeed.

I'm sorry to say, [MENTION=2719]Mouldy Boots[/MENTION], but you're not winning hearts and minds with this thread. Before it started I had a negative view of the RMT. Thanks to the links and information posted by others on the thread, I have now educated myself and feel very supportive of the RMT cause.

So if you have an anti union agenda and want to start a thread about it, please try to ensure you post facts rather than nonsense. It's making you look foolish at best, driving the uncommitted in the very opposite of the direction you would presumably have us.

 

[Simster]

Indeed.

I'm sorry to say, [MENTION=2719]Mouldy Boots[/MENTION], but you're not winning hearts and minds with this thread. Before it started I had a negative view of the RMT. Thanks to the links and information posted by others on the thread, I have now educated myself and feel very supportive of the RMT cause.

So if you have an anti union agenda and want to start a thread about it, please try to ensure you post facts rather than nonsense. It's making you look foolish at best, driving the uncommitted in the very opposite of the direction you would presumably have us.

Exactly where I am. My first post on this strike was one that was "fed up with both sides, shite industry who care nothing about the customer" etc. Having read about the reasons for the strike, and seen Cash patiently explain their position on news shows and QT, I am now full square behind them.

As for Mouldy Boots, the bloke is an embarrassment. There are so many respectable, reasonable and moral right-of-centre NSCers. He's not one of them.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Exactly where I am. My first post on this strike was one that was "fed up with both sides, shite industry who care nothing about the customer" etc. Having read about the reasons for the strike, and seen Cash patiently explain their position on news shows and QT, I am now full square behind them.

As for Mouldy Boots, the bloke is an embarrassment. There are so many respectable, reasonable and moral right-of-centre NSCers. He's not one of them.

It’s quite easy to see why [MENTION=2719]Mouldy Boots[/MENTION] gets so sucked in by certain people. He must be a dream for Boris and Farage.

 

[Machiavelli]

It’s quite easy to see why [MENTION=2719]Mouldy Boots[/MENTION] gets so sucked in by certain people. He must be a dream for Boris and Farage.

Indeed and, over here, we're really suffering the consequences of him and his ilk getting sucked in.

 

[amexer]

Forcing people to work weekends is not 'modernisation' - it is a regressive step that attempts to push working back decades (France, for example, banned Sunday working in 1812 and made Sunday a mandatory rest day in 1906 - indeed there were laws on the Frence statute books preventing Sunday working going back to 1388).

Any change results in Sunday working not being voluntary - and a pay cut for the workers.

Why should anybody get payed extra for working on a Sunday. When applying for a job are aware Railways open 7 days. Different matter if changing someones contract from 5 days

 

[cunning fergus]

It’s the same faux outrage that befell footballers and their wages during Covid.

The good news is the proletariat are finally getting their act together……

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-06-27...ut-over-pay-dispute-amid-record-court-backlog

With Barristers no longer representing the bourgeoisie there will be no one left to eat?

The RSC will have to amend Henry VI (Part 2, Act IV, Scene 2….to be exact).

Interesting times

 

[LamieRobertson]

Blimey ..bit of a bundle on another poster going on

 

[Uncle C]

The idea of levelling up is a good one.

Its a shame the Unions are not applying the same principles within their own membership. With train drivers etc getting in excess of £70 K wouldn't it be a nice gesture if they gave up a pay rise so the money can be given to rail cleaners etc.

But no, they have their noses in the trough like everyone else, and are using the collective power of the lowest paid workers to get more for themselves.