[Misc] Will the Unions bring everyone to their knees?

[Simster]

I've been behind them all along, but only reluctantly. On [MENTION=4019]Triggaaar[/MENTION]'s point, I do think rail workers pay is decent enough, in large part because they're heavily unionised and can cause destruction. But it's nurses, teachers, care workers where the real scandal on pay lies.

I largely agree, although be careful about assuming all rail workers are earning a decent wage. As an example, the people doing cleaning jobs at stations are one sector of the industry on strike, and they're not well paid for what they do at all apparently.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

All hail the junior doctors who are demanding their real pay is restored to levels seen over a decade ago. For those that find it difficult, let's spell things out. The NHS is our greatest institution, yet it's been destroyed by 12 years of Tory rule. There is a recruitment crisis with over 100,000 unfilled vacancies. The Tories have slashed pay to NHS staff by over 20% since they've been in power. The junior doctors have said they're going out unless their pay is restored, which will also start to address the staff shortfall.

Yet, I'm sure we'll get all sorts of responses from those that will rely on said junior doctors for care that 'we can't afford it'. They should also note that nurses, teachers, and all sorts of other professions are in a similar position. The problem isn't the unions per se, the problem is the assault on the unions and their weakness over decades. Now might be the moment where those that are in the movement decide enough is enough.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/23/ready-to-strike-public-sector-workers

Incidentally, a junior doctor isn't like a junior bank clerk, allowed to take money in but not engage in any complicated transactions.

A junior doctor has already trained for 5 years to obtain their batchelor of medicine, batchelor of surgery (MBBS). This will be 8 years if they do a science degree before medical school. They start their 'junior doctor' role as a foundation doctor. The salary is £27,689 (in Foundation Year 1) to £32,050 (in Foundation Year 2). It takes a minimum of another 9 years to become a consultant. Not everyone gets there.

A mate of mine interrupted his 5 year's training to to a PhD (3 years) and take a specialist MRC funded 4 year postdoctoral position, so he could become a research physician. So when he started his foundation year he was 31 years old and married. I am not a medic (PhD). When I was 31 I got a lectureship. I have a 29 year old postodoctoral fellow on over £40K PA and on today's scale I'd expect to start as a lecturerer age 31 on around £45K.

My junior doctor pal was on the picket line last time the medics had 'action short of a strike'. Five years ago, or so, he'd had enough and emigrated to Canada.

There is an argument that at the top end of the scale consultants earn too much. But at the bottom end.....it isn't right.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Many on here genuinely think people at lower pay ranges should be earning a lot more. Obviously this would have to come from somewhere. Do you think it should come from higher earners earning less or paying more tax. Do you think corporation tax should be increased.

I have always said those who can afford it should pay more. So higher earners should pay a bit more.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I largely agree, although be careful about assuming all rail workers are earning a decent wage. As an example, the people doing cleaning jobs at stations are one sector of the industry on strike, and they're not well paid for what they do at all apparently.

Precisely. That would be like criticizing junior doctors for being discontented, based on what consultants earn.

 

[lawros left foot]

Is the rail service key? Obviously. Does a strike prove that? Yes, but it didn't need proving.

But a strike doesn't prove that they are underpaid. Similarly the NHS, police, firefighters, teachers, army are all vitally important.

Which ones are more underpaid than the others I really don't know. Are the train drivers the worst paid (for the hours, conditions, skills required etc) out of that lot?

The vast majority of train drivers aren’t on strike.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

This will cause an avalanche of wage demands at a time when we are so vulnerable.
We are coming off the back of the worst financial stress we have ever been in since the war because of the virus, couple that with the war in Ukraine, which of course we want to help with financially as well as importing goods from them and you have got a very serious problem.
I don't disagree, we all need a rise in wages, and businesses also need a boost but we can't have it all, inflation is a killer and the timing is just not right.
Ask anyone who lived through the 70s

Chesterfield bin men have just had a 7.5% pay rise negotiated. Look out for the avalanche.

 

[highflyer]

Haven't followed this thread, so just copying and pasting what I put on another thread as it's pretty much all I have to say on the subject:




When times get tough, the rich will defend their wealth and income at the expense of workers as far as they can

The only way for workers to counter the power of capital is to organize and act in solidarity.

Now is a good time to join a Union

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Is the rail service key? Obviously. Does a strike prove that? Yes, but it didn't need proving.

But a strike doesn't prove that they are underpaid. Similarly the NHS, police, firefighters, teachers, army are all vitally important.

Which ones are more underpaid than the others I really don't know. Are the train drivers the worst paid (for the hours, conditions, skills required etc) out of that lot?

Personal view is that we see the following scenario too often. Company X has made over £100 million profit in a year. The CEO is on 750K a year (a rise of 15% from the previous year) but there is only 1 or 2 % in the pot for the people that actually do the work. Everyone shrugs in their own Graham Potter " It is what is way" but the current cost of living crisis has forced people to re-think and I don't blame them. Are train drivers overpaid? I really couldn't say but I don't blame them for looking at the vast quantities of revenue and profit going through the system and questioning why everyone but the people doing the work getting remunerated for it.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The vast majority of train drivers aren’t on strike.

It's amazing how many people still don't know how to tell ASLEF from RMT.

 

[darkwolf666]

https://news.sky.com/story/rail-str...als-compare-to-what-train-staff-want-12638506

some good info on what the sectors earn here. Rail wise aside from drivers and higher paid roles the average is 33k. Guess its then down to whether the roles are worth more. Isnt the UK average now 36k ?

IMO -
Teachers 30k seems low
Police 24k - very very low IMO


Must admit , comparatively speking - 33k for a ticket office and train guard seems an ok wage for a fairly easy job

All opinions on that

I'm not sure those figures you quote are representative, the police officer figure is for Level 1, or new officer. Are ticket office staff being recruited on 33k?

 

[darkwolf666]

It's amazing how many people still don't know how to tell ASLEF from RMT.

Or arse from elbow!

 

[amexer]

I have always said those who can afford it should pay more. So higher earners should pay a bit more.

I tend to agree. So what do you think higher tax rates should be and corporation tax. Not sure of figures but already something like 80/85% of total tax revenues come from top 15% earners

 

[rippleman]

Many on here genuinely think people at lower pay ranges should be earning a lot more. Obviously this would have to come from somewhere. Do you think it should come from higher earners earning less or paying more tax. Do you think corporation tax should be increased.

1. Higher tax for the super rich

2. HMRC to grow a pair and go after the tax evaders who are hiding their wealth offshore (see Paradise Papers and others)

3. No increase in CT (above those already announced) but HMRC to grow a pair and go after the global tax evaders (eg Amazon, Google, Starbucks et al)

But let's not forget the billions we should still have were it not for this corrupt and incompetent government buying crap PPE (who orders millions of units and pays up front without checking the goods first?), paying friends and family for PPE contracts that never arrived, paid out billions in fraudulent covid payments because they were so incompetent they put no safeguards in place, writing off nearly all the fraudulent covid payments because they can't be arsed to recover them, and I suspect billions more in government backed bounce back loans that will never be repaid.

In a previous life I was a manager at the largest professional services firm in the world. At that time my son's mother was a nurse working with severly disabled children. She was making a real difference to people's lives every single day. I was shuffling paper about and filling in Tax Returns for senior execs of huge MNCs. I was earning nearly 4 times what she was earning and making no significant contribution to anything. It was wrong then and it's wrong now.

 

[amexer]

1. Higher tax for the super rich

2. HMRC to grow a pair and go after the tax evaders who are hiding their wealth offshore (see Paradise Papers and others)

3. No increase in CT (above those already announced) but HMRC to grow a pair and go after the global tax evaders (eg Amazon, Google, Starbucks et al)

But let's not forget the billions we should still have were it not for this corrupt and incompetent government buying crap PPE (who orders millions of units and pays up front without checking the goods first?), paying friends and family for PPE contracts that never arrived, paid out billions in fraudulent covid payments because they were so incompetent they put no safeguards in place, writing off nearly all the fraudulent covid payments because they can't be arsed to recover them, and I suspect billions more in government backed bounce back loans that will never be repaid.

In a previous life I was a manager at the largest professional services firm in the world. At that time my son's mother was a nurse working with severly disabled children. She was making a real difference to people's lives every single day. I was shuffling paper about and filling in Tax Returns for senior execs of huge MNCs. I was earning nearly 4 times what she was earning and making no significant contribution to anything. It was wrong then and it's wrong now.

On the basis super rich and big companies already contribute majority of total tax revenues it is a difficult one where to raise the money . Raised it has to be as nothing in pot now. I may think PL footballers earnings are a joke and should earn less or pay more tax but fact is many must be paying million plus in tax now. If you say put there tax rate up to say 75% all it would mean many would go and play in a lower taxed country.

 

[Swansman]

On the basis super rich and big companies already contribute majority of total tax revenues it is a difficult one where to raise the money . Raised it has to be as nothing in pot now. I may think PL footballers earnings are a joke and should earn less or pay more tax but fact is many must be paying million plus in tax now. If you say put there tax rate up to say 75% all it would mean many would go and play in a lower taxed country.

Footballers are rich, but they're very far from the "super rich" parasites that are funneling money out of your society to their tax-free offshore bank accounts.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Haven't followed this thread, so just copying and pasting what I put on another thread as it's pretty much all I have to say on the subject:




When times get tough, the rich will defend their wealth and income at the expense of workers as far as they can

The only way for workers to counter the power of capital is to organize and act in solidarity.

Now is a good time to join a Union

Precisely.

And ironically free collective bargaining is a sublime capitalist activity. It makes it possible for the employer to discuss with one representative to create a structure of pay and conditions that can me managed simply, tweaked and modified with agreement as and when. Simple, efficient and fair.

When bosses refuse to recognise a union they are saying that every individual worker must make their own pitch for their own salary and conditions, or accept a blanket arrangement handed down without discussion, and if workers don't like it they can leave. That isn't capitalism. That's servitude (slaverey with some recompense and the right to leave). Divide* and rule.

It is a shame I had to resign from my union. Sadly the only motion it passed in the last 2 years was to boycott Israel. Sadly the SWP and Militant have laken it over (locally, if not nationally) and lots of well meaning fools, and very motivated members with a middle Eastern background have hijacked the show. Shame really because I was happy to pay my subs so the union could help the younger staff in their ongoing struggles over pensions (my pension is secure, theirs isn't). But if the union just wants to play silly buggers, and insufficient young staff can be bothered to engage and stop all this shitehousery, ****-em. But the degree of silly buggery in unions appears to have shrunk across the piece.

I am hopeful that in the wider world, union members are keeping their eye on the ball (their terms and conditions), as the RMT, much to my surprise, appear to be doing.

*And of course the Johnson gang are promoting divide and rule. It is easy for them to dog whistle loyal supporters, like the OP, who are only too ready to see only greed and selfishness in industrial action. Even if they have some sympathy with doctors and nurses, they will focus all their attention on whatbout the RMT, and whatablut the £60K plus a year they all already earn. Chaps, play fair, be fair. Not every strike is evil. Arthur Scargill is dead. Degsy Hatton is no longer a flying picket with a megaphone. Attempting to divide the RMT from ordinary working men and women and their families is what Johnson wants, but it isn't going to wash outside certain echo chambers. You only have to read this thread to see that. It isn't even as if the majority of posters are hoary-handed sons and daughters of toil....

 

[Icy Gull]

The winter of discontent is likely to surpass the last one. I wonder if Starmer will be in power by the turn of the year? Has to be a real possibility, no?

Assuming that we haven’t been nuked by then ��

 

[beorhthelm]

Footballers are rich, but they're very far from the "super rich" parasites that are funneling money out of your society to their tax-free offshore bank accounts.

the McScrooge theory of economics enters the room.

no one keeps money hidden offshore in a vault, out of society as you put it. money gets spent, invested, feeds into the economy.

 

[Swansman]

the McScrooge theory of economics enters the room.

no one keeps money hidden offshore in a vault, out of society as you put it. money gets spent, invested, feeds into the economy.

That's the neo-liberal theory, proven to be dubious at best. 50 years of the lie that "the market solves it, let the money flow into the pockets of the rich and we'll all be living in some utopia", which is quite obviously not the case.

 

[Machiavelli]

I have always said those who can afford it should pay more. So higher earners should pay a bit more.

Here, I'll disagree. Although the notion of tax cuts should be nipped in the bud, for the simple reason that we can't afford them, the key issue with taxation is that the burden should shift away from taxation of labour, and towards the taxation of assets and certain forms of consumption: conspicuous, anti-social, anti-environmental.
We need labour, it's what produces value, and it is also what's required to stop destroying and denigrating what provides value (ie our life-support machine). Go after assets. Amongst other things, go after the City of London, and all the tax havens and dodgy jurisdictions it facilitates. Introduce a land value tax. Increase inheritance tax Increase capital gains tax. Increase taxes on second (and third, and fourth, ...) properties. And so on.

I've dispensed this advice on multiple occasions: read ch 17 of Capital and Ideology by Thomas Piketty.