Why you should try to avoid shopping at Amazon

[Ninja Elephant]

We are discussing a living wage, not the average wage. Adults should be paid a wage they can live on.

Live on the wages you earn.

You are missing the point spectacularly.

No, I am making a different point to you. You seem to think people should expect some ridiculous minimum wage, for some unspecified reason. You do the work you can get and if you're not happy you have options;
1. Work hard and progress to a higher pay grade.
2. Work hard outside of work to develop your skills in order to get a different job.
3. Moan, whine and bitch to everyone about your pay without doing anything to improve your situation.

Am I wrong?

 

[seagull_in_malaysia]

Thanks for the link, I'm afraid many of these 'well qualified' people have degrees in subjects that are absolutely useless for the work environment of 2013.

I do specialist Scientific/Engineering Consultancy work and interact with Private Sector Industrial and Manufacturing Clients. I'm afraid the lady in the BBC link with a degree in History and Politics is of no use to me as a potential employer - sorry but that is a fact.

The fact she chose the wrong subject to study is, I am afraid, her fault and if she does end up stacking shelves perhaps she can reflect upon this (before she decides to retrain in an area where she will be employable in a job that matches her aspirations)

Exactly. The UK has a shortage of graduates in key industries and has to rely on foreign talent to plug the gaps. I'm sure it's great studying something you love but if it isn't going to give you the skills to land a job then what is the point?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/educatio...ts-fill-one-in-five-skilled-British-jobs.html

 

[EDS]

That's a fallacy. You can have rich people who pay a sustainable wage. I'm talking about the primary worker who receives very little.

I'm still amazed that workers of big, profitable multinationals still give birth in the fields collecting what-have-you, but entirely understandable. They want a bigger house and or a bigger car.

Its all about scales, if I pay more I have less, therefore I have to charge more and that goes up the chain. Not to mention it adds more onto goods/services. Its not a fallacy, it is capitalism.

 

[Soulman]

Its all about scales, if I pay more I have less, therefore I have to charge more and that goes up the chain. Not to mention it adds more onto goods/services. Its not a fallacy, it is capitalism.

Meanwhile.........

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Thanks for the link, I'm afraid many of these 'well qualified' people have degrees in subjects that are absolutely useless for the work environment of 2013.

I do specialist Scientific/Engineering Consultancy work and interact with Private Sector Industrial and Manufacturing Clients. I'm afraid the lady in the BBC link with a degree in History and Politics is of no use to me as a potential employer - sorry but that is a fact.

The fact she chose the wrong subject to study is, I am afraid, her fault and if she does end up stacking shelves perhaps she can reflect upon this (before she decides to retrain in an area where she will be employable in a job that matches her aspirations)

That's a very narrow view of what a good education system can deliver to society. University degrees do not have to be "training" for specific jobs.

My degree in Social Anthropology was no hindrance to a career that found me advancing into a role where the official job title was "Principal Engineer". In fact, I could honestly say that trained and qualified engineers weren't the best suited individuals for the role that was expected of me. The world changes. A good general education is better preparation for those changes than an education that focuses on specific skills that may not be relevant in ten or twenty years time. To take the specific example given, a degree in History and Politics won't condemn anyone to unskilled work at the minimum wage.

 

[EDS]

It is nearly time to redistribute the worlds wealth more equally

Not a chance, the ruling elite across all the countries would rather blow us(us that is, not them) all up than give up their power and money is power

 

[CheeseRolls]

I'll howl you down. Don't you read the news? There are plenty of well qualified people who have studied hard but still can't get a job to match their qualifications and aspirations and that might be why some have to take jobs in supermarkets and places like Amazon.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23247176

These are temporary jobs, which is surely the point. Amazon permanent employees are better paid which was a cause for some resentment in the article. For some people it is an opportunity to earn a few quid before Christmas. Not easy money, but that is the way of the modern world.

 

[Norman Potting]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25180906

The way forward?

 

[drew]

These are temporary jobs, which is surely the point. Amazon permanent employees are better paid which was a cause for some resentment in the article. For some people it is the only an opportunity to earn a few quid before Christmas. Not easy money, but that is the way of the modern world.

Corrected for you!

You make it sound like those 'temp' employees aren't interested in full time work. Maybe they take this work because it is all that is on offer at the time.

 

[dougdeep]

That's a very narrow view of what a good education system can deliver to society. University degrees do not have to be "training" for specific jobs.

My degree in Social Anthropology was no hindrance to a career that found me advancing into a role where the official job title was "Principal Engineer". In fact, I could honestly say that trained and qualified engineers weren't the best suited individuals for the role that was expected of me. The world changes. A good general education is better preparation for those changes than an education that focuses on specific skills that may not be relevant in ten or twenty years time. To take the specific example given, a degree in History and Politics won't condemn anyone to unskilled work at the minimum wage.

A teacher once said to me that you don't go to school to learn, you go to learn how to learn.

 

[KZNSeagull]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25180906

The way forward?

Will they be fitted with guns to stop the items from being pinched?

 

[Hotchilidog]

Why do you keep mentioning people wanting to better themselves via work? The world will always need people to do unskilled work and to me they are jobs which are just as valid. Some people simply want to do a shift and go home; nothing wrong with this at all. If everyone was chasing the dream we'd be ****ed as it is physically impossible for everyone to have everything. But just because people are not actively pursuing a life of Jamie Oliver cookery books in a Barrett Homes semi it does not imply they should be shat on financially. If you want a member of staff in an unskilled position to do a good job and be loyal to you pay them a decent salary, give them some security and be nice to them.

Superb post! Totally agree.

 

[BLOCK F]

I watched the Amazon programme on the tv and must admit I thought the regime was extrordinarily harsh for many of the workers.
Interesting discussion on all sides, and as is the norm on NSC,plenty of well meaning revolutionary dreamers spouting forth their economic fantasies.
There are no easy answers,but I have to say that there must be a pretty strong case for raising the minimum wage and hence reducing the burden on the taxpayer of paying out huge amounts of WTC and CTC.These payments are basically wage subsidies that enable companies to continue to pay poor rates.
Additionally,the threshold at which the lower paid start to pay tax should be raised substantially.It is quite ludicrous that anyone on a minimum wage pays tax at all.Yes,I know that in many cases they get it back through credits,but why charge them in the first place?
I speak as a Tory voting retired company director.
Boo-hiss!!!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

No, I am making a different point to you.

Your point is not relevant to the discussion though. We are discussing base working terms and conditions in the unskilled sector. These jobs will always exist. It is simply impossible for everyone in this sector to to move on/up even if they wanted to as there are not enough skilled jobs. As I pointed out earlier it is impossible for everyone to have everything. If every single shelf stacker in the UK decided to retrain do you think a set of jobs will magically appear for all of them? And lets not forget there are a lot of very qualified bright youngsters rolling out of study with no jobs to go to. There are lot of people retraining without jobs to go to. It's all very well having your attitude when there is plentiful employment around....but at the moment your views are incredibly flawed as there simply is not enough work to go around.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I watched the Amazon programme on the tv and must admit I thought the regime was extrordinarily harsh for many of the workers.
Interesting discussion on all sides, and as is the norm on NSC,plenty of well meaning revolutionary dreamers spouting forth their economic fantasies.
There are no easy answers,but I have to say that there must be a pretty strong case for raising the minimum wage and hence reducing the burden on the taxpayer of paying out huge amounts of WTC and CTC.These payments are basically wage subsidies that enable companies to continue to pay poor rates.
Additionally,the threshold at which the lower paid start to pay tax should be raised substantially.It is quite ludicrous that anyone on a minimum wage pays tax at all.Yes,I know that in many cases they get it back through credits,but why charge them in the first place?
I speak as a Tory voting retired company director.
Boo-hiss!!!

Totally agree, as a card carrying Labour party member And what interests me is that the view we have is shared by many Labour and Tory voters I know.

 

[CheeseRolls]

Corrected for you!

You make it sound like those 'temp' employees aren't interested in full time work. Maybe they take this work because it is all that is on offer at the time.

Is it even relevant Drew ? Some people have taken on temporary jobs, with very little chance of being made permanent next year. If anyone has expectations that this is not the case, then they are seriously misguided. Maybe if we all made a conscious effort to buy even more stuff from Amazon, some of these temporary jobs could become permanent. Many retailers staff up to cover the Christmas period, but this is not the answer to structural unemployment. We could always try moving to a quarterly Christmas model.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

That's a very narrow view of what a good education system can deliver to society. University degrees do not have to be "training" for specific jobs.

My degree in Social Anthropology was no hindrance to a career that found me advancing into a role where the official job title was "Principal Engineer". In fact, I could honestly say that trained and qualified engineers weren't the best suited individuals for the role that was expected of me. The world changes. A good general education is better preparation for those changes than an education that focuses on specific skills that may not be relevant in ten or twenty years time. To take the specific example given, a degree in History and Politics won't condemn anyone to unskilled work at the minimum wage.

Totally agree with this. I have always felt the attitude Jakarta presents is rather anti-intellectual as well.

 

[jakarta]

That's a very narrow view of what a good education system can deliver to society. University degrees do not have to be "training" for specific jobs.

My degree in Social Anthropology was no hindrance to a career that found me advancing into a role where the official job title was "Principal Engineer". In fact, I could honestly say that trained and qualified engineers weren't the best suited individuals for the role that was expected of me. The world changes. A good general education is better preparation for those changes than an education that focuses on specific skills that may not be relevant in ten or twenty years time. To take the specific example given, a degree in History and Politics won't condemn anyone to unskilled work at the minimum wage.

Oh, Social Anthropology - why didn't you say so in the first place?

That trumps having good knowledge of Chemistry, Physics, Biology and Mathematics, let alone any of the specifics such as Toxicology, Mechanics and Statistics, all of which as you say may not be relevant in the future.

I do apologise and I'll offer that lady with the History and Politics degree a job immediately, I'm sure she will find it a breeze.

 

[jakarta]

Totally agree with this. I have always felt the attitude Jakarta presents is rather anti-intellectual as well.

Please don't tell the University I do part time lecturing for, I'm sure it would be grounds for dismissal.....

 

[soistes]

Oh, Social Anthropology - why didn't you say so in the first place?

That trumps having good knowledge of Chemistry, Physics, Biology and Mathematics, let alone any of the specifics such as Toxicology, Mechanics and Statistics, all of which as you say may not be relevant in the future.

I do apologise and I'll offer that lady with the History and Politics degree a job immediately, I'm sure she will find it a breeze.

I'm not sure it's quite as clear cut as you suggest, and I think that dismissing the history/politics types in this way is not only a bit patronising, but might mean that employers are missing out on real talent.

I speak from experience. Most of the people I recruit, for highly technical professional consulting roles are educated to Masters level or higher (about half have doctorates). What we're looking for, however, is not the detailed specialist knowledge of the technologies they'll be working with (we will train them in that), but rather very high level analytical skills and the ability to apply those skills. If they have those abilities, they'll be fine. My experience suggests that the subject matter of the degree/masters/PhD doesn't always correlate with this ability. So we've got some people who've come through an arts or social science or humanities route at university who are just as good as those who've come through a maths, science, engineering route: it's the ability to think, analyse and learn that's important. The only caveat I would make to this, is that it does seem to be the case that quantitative/mathematical ability IS fairly important -- so, for example, if they've come through the arts etc route, I would still normally expect them to have done well at GCSE/O Level or indeed A level maths. The kinds of people who say they really "struggle with numbers" tend also to struggle with kinds of analytical skills we're looking for.