Why we are not good enough

[BensGrandad]

And the obverse of that was highlighted on Sky Sports recently. They showed a table of the number of players involved in the latest round of Euro 2008 qualifyers, and which national league they played in. I can't remember the actual figures, but the English Premier league had the highest representation of players.

IMHO I believe a successful domestic league (ie European trophy winning) and a successful national side are mutually exclusive.

Does this not then show that the Premier League is getting stronger at the expense of the national team. What do the vast majority want their team to win the Champions League or England to win the World Cup etc, I would suggest the club.

 

[beorhthelm]

it was somthing of a surprise. only a couple of weeks ago, take a bucthers on the bbc site.

 

[pasty]

Does this not then show that the Premier League is getting stronger at the expense of the national team.

My point exactly.

What do the vast majority want their team to win the Champions League or England to win the World Cup etc, I would suggest the club.

Take a look at the flags you see at most England games. I would say a good 80% - 90% of flags showing club names are League 1 and lower.

 

[sten_super]

If they'd been "home grown" they'd be playing in the League of Ireland, but as most of them aren't willing to play in the conditions there (my last game attended, on Saturday, was at a ground with NO stands and NO raked terracing - just standing along the edge of the pitch... and this was in Division One) or take the wages on offer (300-500 a week); they go abroad. England isn't "home" for "home-grown".

But my point stands. That's like saying that clubs should not have any Welsh players coming through their youth systems, as they should be playing in the Welsh League. It's completely irrelevant to the wider debate anyway, so lets move on.

Well, Sepp Blatter thas stated he wants to move on this issue, limiting foreign players to 6 per side (or so). He seems to be willing to force the issue with the EU which clubs are reluctant to do so due to costs and the fact, especially in the UK, it is not in thier interests. At the end of the day, as long as you dont restrict squads, its difficult to see how the EU can legally object on the gounds of restriction of trade or movement of labour since its down to the club how they deploy thier employees to first team/second team etc.

Blatter can't 'force' the issue with the EU... he can go cap in hand and request that football be treated as a 'special case' which would be exempt from EU employment laws. FIFA applied for this when the Bosman rule was introduced; they were turned down then, on the basis that there was no reason that they should not be subject to the same employment laws as everyone else, and I can't see any reason why they wouldn't be turned down again.

 

[Cian]

But my point stands. That's like saying that clubs should not have any Welsh players coming through their youth systems, as they should be playing in the Welsh League. It's completely irrelevant to the wider debate anyway, so lets move on.

Except Wales is part of the UK and, erm, Ireland hasn't been since 1937/48 depending on which sides view of it you take. And Wales's largest teams play in the Football League as it stands, Irelands teams (and Northern Ireland's largest team) play in the League of Ireland.

Its vaguely like annexing North France as "home".

 

[beorhthelm]

Blatter can't 'force' the issue with the EU... he can go cap in hand and request that football be treated as a 'special case' which would be exempt from EU employment laws. FIFA applied for this when the Bosman rule was introduced; they were turned down then, on the basis that there was no reason that they should not be subject to the same employment laws as everyone else, and I can't see any reason why they wouldn't be turned down again.

I dont see that it necessarily requires an exemption, and i dont see that the Bosman ruling has any relevance other than being football related. If i run a call centre in the UK and want to keep my French employees to the department dealing with French calls, my Polish employees in the Polish department etc, i dont see that the EU can say anything about it (same pay and conditions etc). The issue is not about employment, its about distribution of human resources. A club can still employ as many EU workers as they like, it would just be a technical restriction to comply with the rules of the league that x number of those fielded are national citizens (more interesting difficullty with home nations to be resolved there...).

 

[sten_super]

I dont see that it necessarily requires an exemption, and i dont see that the Bosman ruling has any relevance other than being football related. If i run a call centre in the UK and want to keep my French employees to the department dealing with French calls, my Polish employees in the Polish department etc, i dont see that the EU can say anything about it (same pay and conditions etc). The issue is not about employment, its about distribution of human resources. A club can still employ as many EU workers as they like, it would just be a technical restriction to comply with the rules of the league that x number of those fielded are national citizens (more interesting difficullty with home nations to be resolved there...).

Blatter has always presented it as an issue that would require an exemption.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/football_focus/7028310.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/4213024.stm

The 71-year-old Swiss argues that football deserves special treatment because it is not like any other job. "Workers in Europe can circulate freely but footballers are not workers," he said.

"You cannot consider a footballer like any normal worker because you need 11 to play a match - and they are more artists than workers."


European Union law would prevent any widespread restrictions being imposed in member countries, but Blatter believes there is a willingness to overcome this.

"The EU is not against this," he added to BBC Radio Five Live. "It has legislation that will not permit but would not say it is against it. We will discuss this with them.


I bought up the Bosman ruling because grounds for an exemption are not clause-specific. FIFA/UEFA went to the EU for an exemption to allow them to opt out of employment laws pertaining to freedom of contract... the EU said no, football is not a special case, you have to follow the same laws as everyone else.

However, following a bit of reading (thanks BBC) it appears that the EC may be making moves to step back a bit from this position...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6291242.stm

Among its main points, the paper says:
Quotas for home-grown players may be compatible with EU rules

 

[beorhthelm]

"The EU is not against this," he added to BBC Radio Five Live. "It has legislation that will not permit but wouldnot say it is against it. We will discuss this with them.

ie, its not explicit. In EU law thats significant. all round sounds odd, contradictary and almost as if Sepp is defering a power to the EU that it may not actually have. So we come back to the theory that the main obstacle is actually a lack of interest in a change from the clubs, with Sepp preaching this out every couple of years to keep fans/other groups happy

i suppose there are few other areas where the issue comes up. main one i can think of in security services (army/police/MI5 etc) where you can restrict any non-nationals. Also members of parliment? maybe judicary too? I can think of one interesting anomoly - national sporting sides, after all they are paid. Is that due to an exemption or just been overlooked?