Why we are not good enough

[larus]

The problem is kids aren't coached properly before clubs take them on. Junior coaches here are mainly concerned with winning matches, not developing kids.

That is, IMO, one of the main factors in the problem with English football. That and playing too soon on an adults pitch FFS.

 

[Wozza]

The reason that the Premier League may wish to do it is because the Premier League was started by the FA to combat the Football League which is an independant authority answerable to the FA and it is the FA that is also responsible for our national team so the restriction in the Premier League would increase the ability in the national side. Until something like this is done we shall never get near to winning an international title of note.

The Premier League is a commercial business, with tenuous links to the FA.

The majority of stakeholders are now foreign - and they have no interest in the England team.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

The reason England struggle at international level of football OUR PLAYERS .
ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH

The following figures were taken from the Sunday Times showing the nationalities of all players taking part in the European Champions League on 2/3 Oct - 16 Matches 32 teams:

53 Brazilian
34 French
30 Italien
29 Spanish
23 Portugese
20 Argentinian
20 German
16 Romanian
15 Turks
15 Chezs
14 Serbian
13 Scottish
13 Dutch
12 English
11 Ivory Coast
10 Ukraine

Of the 12 English Scholes and Carragher have retired from international football and Sidwell came on for 10 minutes.

1 more point who has watched the most up and coming young English players over the last 6 years and who is managing the suprise team in the Premiership..... Sven. How many English players has he signed for Man City.....0

While agreeing with most of what you say I think you're being a bit hard on Sven. Man City is one of thje few teams that already had a flourishing contingent of young UK players.... Richards, Dunne (not so young), Ireland, Johnson, Hart etc and Sven has kept faith with them and regularly played them.

 

[Cian]

While agreeing with most of what you say I think you're being a bit hard on Sven. Man City is one of thje few teams that already had a flourishing contingent of young UK players.... Richards, Dunne (not so young), Ireland, Johnson, Hart etc and Sven has kept faith with them and regularly played them.

Stephen Ireland is, amazingly for his name, Irish... As is Richard Dunne. Not UK players.

 

[Les Biehn]

Not sure why people think a lack of English players in the Prem is the reason behind our national team doing shite, I would say player for player we've got as much talent in our squad as any other country. The problem we have is we don't know how to use these players, tactically we are inept. Christ, look at Hiddink's comments.

I personally feel there should be a minimum requirement of English players in each squad but this is so the youngsters are given a chance rather than getting a ready made player in from another country who would cost less than his English equivelant and doesn't need to be nurtured like a youth player would. Would also encourage clubs to buy promising youngsters from lower league clubs and therefore pump money back into these areas (and stop lower leagues moaning about some magical right they feel they have to the big bucks floating around in the top tier of football).

Also would make clubs and the FA think about how they coach young players tactically and technically, hopefully meaning an advancement in playing and coaching ability.

 

[BensGrandad]

.

I personally feel there should be a minimum requirement of English players in each squad but this is so the youngsters are given a chance rather than getting a ready made player in from another country who would cost less than his English equivelant and doesn't need to be nurtured like a youth player would. Would also encourage clubs to buy promising youngsters from lower league clubs and therefore pump money back into these areas (and stop lower leagues moaning about some magical right they feel they have to the big bucks floating around in the top tier of football).

Also would make clubs and the FA think about how they coach young players tactically and technically, hopefully meaning an advancement in playing and coaching ability.

Exactly my point but I used the Premiership, being our top league as an example of why our national side fails and that is because there are insufficient English young players playing at the top level. This is indicated by the numbers of players playing in the top club competition as shown by Sunday Times. It must follow that if 53 brazilians play for the top clubs in Europe then their national side must stand a fair chance of being better than most others, when you consider that we only had 9.

 

[sten_super]

Stephen Ireland is, amazingly for his name, Irish... As is Richard Dunne. Not UK players.

That's a somewhat spurious point. Are you saying that someone from Northern Ireland counts as 'home grown' but someone from the Republic doesn't? The point he is making stands... they have invested in bringing through youngsters from this group of islands.

Not sure why people think a lack of English players in the Prem is the reason behind our national team doing shite, I would say player for player we've got as much talent in our squad as any other country. The problem we have is we don't know how to use these players, tactically we are inept. Christ, look at Hiddink's comments.

I don't agree. Yes, we have as much talent as most other countries, but not the top countries. Compare our team to the Italians, or the Brazilians. These are the teams that win major tournaments, and they have players that (in my opinion) have a much higher level of technical skill than the vast majority of players that play for England.

I personally feel there should be a minimum requirement of English players in each squad but this is so the youngsters are given a chance rather than getting a ready made player in from another country who would cost less than his English equivelant and doesn't need to be nurtured like a youth player would. Would also encourage clubs to buy promising youngsters from lower league clubs and therefore pump money back into these areas (and stop lower leagues moaning about some magical right they feel they have to the big bucks floating around in the top tier of football).

I don't know why people keep harping on about a quota system; it would be impossible (and I mean impossible) to impose under EU law. Any change would have to be effectively voluntary from the clubs, and that's not going to happen, as has already been discussed. Sorry Les, didn't meant to aim at you particularly, but people keep coming back to something which is a legal impossibility.

I was thinking about this yesterday... I think that the large number of professional clubs in this country may have something to do with it. A lot of these clubs struggle to make ends meet, and rely upon selling players to do so. This means that when they do get a decent player, they hold out for a high price to keep them in business for as long as possible. This then feeds up the league; League 2 players go at inflated prices to League 1 teams, League 1 players go to Championship clubs at high prices, etc. Why would a Championship team sell their best striker for £1.5m if it's going to cost them £800,000 to get a replacement from the league below (who is likely to be nowhere near as good). You then get ridiculous prices for unproven young strikers from the championship (Kenwyne Jones, David Nugent anyone?). These high prices put off any potential buyers, and mean that clubs look abroad for players of a similar calibre who are much much cheaper.

 

[Les Biehn]

I don't agree. Yes, we have as much talent as most other countries, but not the top countries. Compare our team to the Italians, or the Brazilians. These are the teams that win major tournaments, and they have players that (in my opinion) have a much higher level of technical skill than the vast majority of players that play for England.

I agree to a certain extent and it's somethng I've banged on about for ages. Only Ferdinand, Rooney and J.Cole are technically up there with the top teams, but in terms of ability players like Neville, Terry, Cole, Lampard, Gerrard etc wouldn't hold their own in top european sides and competitions if they didn't have something.

I actually think our players have done well given our technical and tactical naivity.

I don't know why people keep harping on about a quota system; it would be impossible (and I mean impossible) to impose under EU law. Any change would have to be effectively voluntary from the clubs, and that's not going to happen, as has already been discussed. Sorry Les, didn't meant to aim at you particularly, but people keep coming back to something which is a legal impossibility.

I've seen this argument before and as I don't really have any legal knowledge of employment rights etc and their relationship to football I can't argue with it. But there are stipulations in place. For example 3 homegrown players must be registered in Champions League squads (Chelsea have 2 less places in their squad as they only registered Terry). Also don't youth set ups have to stick to a certain distance of the club when selecting players? Not sure how that works (look at Arsenal) but I'm sure there is some rule like that.

 

[BensGrandad]

It would be interestuing to get the views of somebody qualified in EU Employment Laws as my view is that a sanction could be placed on the numbers playing NOT the numbers employed, but I do not know whether that would circumvent the laws.

 

[Lethargic]

I was under the impression that this was a very grey area and neither MYOB or Bens Grandad is totally correct as this has not been taken to court or attempted by anyone. There are currently legal arguements both for and against but ultimately it has not been tested in a court of law. Genaral concensus seems to be with MYOB as it is regarded as a restrictive practice (not sure of the correct terms) ie clubs will not buy players to sit on the bench therefore restricting the number of "foreign" players a team buys.

With the current increase in African, S. American and Asian players also I see no reason why we cannont restrict the number of non-EEC players.

At the end of the day - our players are crap, our coaches are crap, our priorities are crap, our premier league is become crap so where does the buck stop the FA and they really are crap. Play for the love of the game and not the cash.

 

[The Large One]

I don't notice a huge rush by ANY league to sign talented English players, whether Premier, Italian, Spanish, German, San Marino etc.

If English players in general were as good or better than other nationalities then presumably somebody somewhere would snap them up. But nobody does.

Why is it that so many other nationalities do well plying abroad but most English players fail? It can't be anything to do with unfamiliar cultures, languages etc as everyone else seems to manage. It must be that in general English players don't have the skill, intellegence, desire, ambition or general ability to shine above the rest.

Or possibly the fact that, in terms of salaries, the grass is greener over here.

Just think, any given talentless English donkey at Bolton or Middlesbrough could be getting £50,000 (71,000 Euros) a week just for being, well, an English donkey. Which player would want to upset that particular applecart by standing out like a talentless English sore thumb at Sevilla or Fiorentina or Bayern Munich even if those clubs did want their braying services?

 

[TWOCHOICEStom]

Or possibly the fact that, in terms of salaries, the grass is greener over here.

Just think, any given talentless English donkey at Bolton or Middlesbrough could be getting £50,000 (71,000 Euros) a week just for being, well, an English donkey. Which player would want to upset that particular applecart by standing out like a talentless English sore thumb at Sevilla or Fiorentina or Bayern Munich even if those clubs did want their braying services?

Very true. Players are over payed over here. I think the biggest problem comes from the youth systems of the bigger clubs though. Teams like Arsenal, granted have a great youth system, but the players just get offloaded to lower league clubs and once your below the Prem, you've got more chance of getting a stadium approved at Falmer within 10 years than you have of making the England squad.

It annoys me that people like Arsene Wenger will scour the earth for young talent rather than making the most of what we've got and creating English talent.

I also aggree with what Harry Redknapp said, there doesn't seem to be the desire amongst working class kids any more.. look at Brazil, they seem to be able to churn out the worlds best player every 5 years or so... why cant we??

 

[e77]

That is, IMO, one of the main factors in the problem with English football. That and playing too soon on an adults pitch FFS.

Exactly. I am sure clubs would be delighted to save a penny or two and recruit homegrown players but they haven't got the raw material.

Also, one gets the impression a lot of talented English kids aren't as educated in life as some of the foreign imports that fill the Premier League academies.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I agree to a certain extent and it's somethng I've banged on about for ages. Only Ferdinand, Rooney and J.Cole are technically up there with the top teams, but in terms of ability players like Neville, Terry, Cole, Lampard, Gerrard etc wouldn't hold their own in top european sides and competitions if they didn't have something.

I actually think our players have done well given our technical and tactical naivity.



I've seen this argument before and as I don't really have any legal knowledge of employment rights etc and their relationship to football I can't argue with it. But there are stipulations in place. For example 3 homegrown players must be registered in Champions League squads (Chelsea have 2 less places in their squad as they only registered Terry). Also don't youth set ups have to stick to a certain distance of the club when selecting players? Not sure how that works (look at Arsenal) but I'm sure there is some rule like that.

I think its 70 miles?

I dont think its the same if you buy the player in

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Another problem is the price smalled clubs charge bigger clubs for decent players young English players, I see the reason why they do it but Would you want to pay 16million for Bent or 3 for Mccarthy?

 

[Brovion]

I think the Employment Law debate shouldn't hide the fact that in the 'Champions League Appearances Last Time' chart mighty, powerful, golden generation, world-beating England came FOURTEENTH (and that includes Steve Sidwell's six minute substitute appearance otherwise we'd have tied with the Ivory Coast).

Surely that should finally nail the lie that England is full of world-class players that other nations would love to have in their squads and that top foreign clubs would love to have in their teams? Bloody hell, you can't even MAKE a squad out of our representatives. Yes we've got good players. Yes Lampard, Gerrard, J Cole, Rooney, etc are individually 'good' - but when you consider the size of our population and the all-pervasive role football plays in English society it's a pretty piss-poor return. (However I know that won't silence the "we've got the players it's all the fault of the manager" lobby. Well it certainly hasn't at any time over the last forty years so I don't suppose it will do so now.)

I've said before that there are a number of factors as to why we're shit and why we produce (relatively speaking) so few decent footballers - and even fewer top-class coaches. However we have to start by acknowledging that their IS a problem that goes way beyond the setup at the top of the game. Don't just try to 'spin' away statistics like BensGrandad posted.

 

[Cian]

That's a somewhat spurious point. Are you saying that someone from Northern Ireland counts as 'home grown' but someone from the Republic doesn't? The point he is making stands... they have invested in bringing through youngsters from this group of islands.

If they'd been "home grown" they'd be playing in the League of Ireland, but as most of them aren't willing to play in the conditions there (my last game attended, on Saturday, was at a ground with NO stands and NO raked terracing - just standing along the edge of the pitch... and this was in Division One) or take the wages on offer (300-500 a week); they go abroad. England isn't "home" for "home-grown".

 

[beorhthelm]

It would be interestuing to get the views of somebody qualified in EU Employment Laws as my view is that a sanction could be placed on the numbers playing NOT the numbers employed, but I do not know whether that would circumvent the laws.

Well, Sepp Blatter thas stated he wants to move on this issue, limiting foreign players to 6 per side (or so). He seems to be willing to force the issue with the EU which clubs are reluctant to do so due to costs and the fact, especially in the UK, it is not in thier interests. At the end of the day, as long as you dont restrict squads, its difficult to see how the EU can legally object on the gounds of restriction of trade or movement of labour since its down to the club how they deploy thier employees to first team/second team etc.

 

[pasty]

The following figures were taken from the Sunday Times showing the nationalities of all players taking part in the European Champions League on 2/3 Oct - 16 Matches 32 teams:

53 Brazilian
34 French
30 Italien
29 Spanish
23 Portugese
20 Argentinian
20 German
16 Romanian
15 Turks
15 Chezs
14 Serbian
13 Scottish
13 Dutch
12 English
11 Ivory Coast
10 Ukraine

And the obverse of that was highlighted on Sky Sports recently. They showed a table of the number of players involved in the latest round of Euro 2008 qualifyers, and which national league they played in. I can't remember the actual figures, but the English Premier league had the highest representation of players.

IMHO I believe a successful domestic league (ie European trophy winning) and a successful national side are mutually exclusive.

 

[BensGrandad]

Surely we are not expecting Sepp Blatter to get something right are we