Why a new manager will bring immediate change

[Diego Napier]

I agree with this in principle, but is it also not criminally short-sighted of our manager not to try something else tactically? Maybe even revert to what Oscar was doing, just till we start keeping clean sheets, or maybe get more able bodied fullbacks like Bruno back?

My biggest issue that clouds my judgement is that I cannot see Sami's tactics working in the Championship. It's too fast, too physical to play a game where your full backs provide all your width. It's easy to exploit for the other team, going narrow in defence and exploiting the vacant width on the attack. Teams like Rotherham are realising they can push up high knowing our fullbacks don't have an out ball down the line. This system requires so much mental ability from the centre halves and central midfielders to cover the width, it makes the forwards and other midfielders reluctant to overlap or get beyond each other. It's a mess. It's complicated for this level and it's showing.

"Criminally short-sighted". Really? I think it would be a little foolish to revert to other tactics whilst the team were in the process of assimilating the manager's chosen approach. Clearly they haven't perfected it yet but swapping from one to another is hardly going to aid their learning and instill comprehension.

I lost count of the number of posts I read on here demanding Poyet have a plan B (and Garcia come to that). Isn't your suggestion just a variation on that theme? How many other teams switch between plan A and Plan B (or Plan C)?

I agree that getting Bruno back as a midfield player will help when covering the fullback position as he was very effective in that position earlier in the season. I also believe that the absence of both Crofts & Stephens leaves us weaker. What I cannot agree with is your suggestion that the system requires "so much mental ability" from the midfield players. It's really not that complicated, it requires anticipation, alertness & positional awareness, skills that are expected and necessary in the Championship as well as Premier League.

You've picked on the Rotherham game to illustrate your point but it doesn't hold true for all games. We didn't lose the game at Bournemouth because the fullbacks were caught too far upfield, we lost because we conceded 2 goals through errors in judgement from Greer and Dunk. I don't believe their errors were caused because they were too distracted by the thought that the midfield might not provide enough cover for the fullbacks; they were just mistakes.

I believe the reason we are not far higher up the table lies with the attack rather than defence. If our strikers had converted a relatively small percentage of the chances they've been presented with then we wouldn't be having such inquests into tactics. All our forwards are more than capable of scoring goals at this level, hopefully they turned the tide at Bournemouth.

 

[Birdie Boy]

In the last two games I don't think that the full-backs have been pushing as far forward, hopefully, this will continue. We need balls put through on the deck to our strikers, like Saturday, who finally scored. We don't want to give penalties away or own goals, like Saturday and maybe, just maybe we will be all right... If not, can we have a home ref tonight, please?

 

[Icy Gull]

We need to get behind this manager and team until such time as Tony sees fit to sack him or he resigns. All this banging on about what could be, should be or might be is getting a bit boring and is no help to anybody

 

[Brighton Mod]

I don't buy that argument I'm afraid. If the players aren't putting in the effort, that's down to them.

Sami certainly hasn't been great, but he's young and learning. I think like Gus, he wants to play one way and you've got to admire his stubbornness in the face of such bad results. He believes his system works and that the players just need to adapt to it.

I think we're good enough. I think the players are learning a totally new system which could be utterly devastating to the opposition if we get it right. There have been glimmers of brilliance for 10-20 minute periods here and there where we've honestly looked better than I've seen us in a long time. We just needed our strikers to put the ball in the back of the net.

There have also been periods where heads have dropped, shoulders have been shrugged and the team have looked like they've given up when it's not working. That part has to change.

I think this season Sami will stay, we'll finish mid-table, then next season we will push on and finish top 4.

I don't buy that the players are learning a new system, so it takes time. We have a lot of highly paid professional athletes at the club and whilst some may be more intelligent than others, the suggestion that they're learning and after three months of playing together havn't yet got it', tells me that are either idiots or that the system is so complicated they need time to work it out. There are many examples of managers taking over and turning around a club in less time than Sammi has been here. The much quoted Tony Pulis, Wurzell and Martinez. Koeman has been in place for a similar amount of time as Sammi and look what he has achieved. I consider whats happened at Southampton as a direct comparison as us. Sold their best players in the summer, lost their manager, had little time to redress the situation and yet are riding high whilst we are failing.

 

[Bold Seagull]

"Criminally short-sighted". Really? I think it would be a little foolish to revert to other tactics whilst the team were in the process of assimilating the manager's chosen approach. Clearly they haven't perfected it yet but swapping from one to another is hardly going to aid their learning and instill comprehension.

I lost count of the number of posts I read on here demanding Poyet have a plan B (and Garcia come to that). Isn't your suggestion just a variation on that theme? How many other teams switch between plan A and Plan B (or Plan C)?

I agree that getting Bruno back as a midfield player will help when covering the fullback position as he was very effective in that position earlier in the season. I also believe that the absence of both Crofts & Stephens leaves us weaker. What I cannot agree with is your suggestion that the system requires "so much mental ability" from the midfield players. It's really not that complicated, it requires anticipation, alertness & positional awareness, skills that are expected and necessary in the Championship as well as Premier League.

You've picked on the Rotherham game to illustrate your point but it doesn't hold true for all games. We didn't lose the game at Bournemouth because the fullbacks were caught too far upfield, we lost because we conceded 2 goals through errors in judgement from Greer and Dunk. I don't believe their errors were caused because they were too distracted by the thought that the midfield might not provide enough cover for the fullbacks; they were just mistakes.

I believe the reason we are not far higher up the table lies with the attack rather than defence. If our strikers had converted a relatively small percentage of the chances they've been presented with then we wouldn't be having such inquests into tactics. All our forwards are more than capable of scoring goals at this level, hopefully they turned the tide at Bournemouth.

In terms of variation of a theme, no, I liked the way Gus set us up, I thought Garcia had us pretty similar, although was more defensive in his mindset. So my comments about Hyppia aren't about him trying a Plan B, I want him to have a new Plan A - the old Plan A!

If what your watching is pretty much fine tactically other than us not taking our chances, then I accept your opinion, but can't agree with it. I really hope you're right though, I'm going to try to enjoy tonights game with your mindset, see how I go.

 

[spence]

Or it could just unsettle them, introducing new ideas and uncertainty?

I am a firm believer in methodical planning and hard word producing results over time. As long as this is being done, I expect results to improve. If it is not, then clearly it is down to TB and the senior management in the club to identify that things are unlikely to improve, and make the change. It would be rash at the minumum, or just plain criminally short-sighted to make a panic change at this stage, based solely on a short run of poor results.

How many times have you heard the expression honeymoon period? I think it's spot on what the op wrote and facts tend to back it up. Look no further than Palace and Pulis.
It doesn't take 11 games to win a match. That's not panicking. I've seen enough of our performances to say Hyypia doesn't have it. Long term he will be a total disaster for this club.
A new manager will turn our club around.We have the players and everything else in place.

 

[Brighton Mod]

"Criminally short-sighted". Really? I think it would be a little foolish to revert to other tactics whilst the team were in the process of assimilating the manager's chosen approach. Clearly they haven't perfected it yet but swapping from one to another is hardly going to aid their learning and instill comprehension.

I lost count of the number of posts I read on here demanding Poyet have a plan B (and Garcia come to that). Isn't your suggestion just a variation on that theme? How many other teams switch between plan A and Plan B (or Plan C)?

I agree that getting Bruno back as a midfield player will help when covering the fullback position as he was very effective in that position earlier in the season. I also believe that the absence of both Crofts & Stephens leaves us weaker. What I cannot agree with is your suggestion that the system requires "so much mental ability" from the midfield players. It's really not that complicated, it requires anticipation, alertness & positional awareness, skills that are expected and necessary in the Championship as well as Premier League.

You've picked on the Rotherham game to illustrate your point but it doesn't hold true for all games. We didn't lose the game at Bournemouth because the fullbacks were caught too far upfield, we lost because we conceded 2 goals through errors in judgement from Greer and Dunk. I don't believe their errors were caused because they were too distracted by the thought that the midfield might not provide enough cover for the fullbacks; they were just mistakes.

I believe the reason we are not far higher up the table lies with the attack rather than defence. If our strikers had converted a relatively small percentage of the chances they've been presented with then we wouldn't be having such inquests into tactics. All our forwards are more than capable of scoring goals at this level, hopefully they turned the tide at Bournemouth.

How long for our players to assimilate the managers chosen tactics, are we fielding a team full of 9 year olds, surely if they havn't got it now they're never going to get it, they cannot be that stupid. Sammis tactic of pushing fullbacks up the pitch is hardly rocket science and surely professional players should be able to understand what he wants. Does Sammi tell the midfield not to pass the ball on the ground through the channel to our strikers, who are all relatively short but quick. I am of the view that the issue we have is actually in the midfield, there is an imbalance and lack of quality which continually fails to supply our forwards with opportunities.

 

[symyjym]

"Criminally short-sighted". Really? I think it would be a little foolish to revert to other tactics whilst the team were in the process of assimilating the manager's chosen approach. Clearly they haven't perfected it yet but swapping from one to another is hardly going to aid their learning and instill comprehension.

I lost count of the number of posts I read on here demanding Poyet have a plan B (and Garcia come to that). Isn't your suggestion just a variation on that theme? How many other teams switch between plan A and Plan B (or Plan C)?

I agree that getting Bruno back as a midfield player will help when covering the fullback position as he was very effective in that position earlier in the season. I also believe that the absence of both Crofts & Stephens leaves us weaker. What I cannot agree with is your suggestion that the system requires "so much mental ability" from the midfield players. It's really not that complicated, it requires anticipation, alertness & positional awareness, skills that are expected and necessary in the Championship as well as Premier League.

You've picked on the Rotherham game to illustrate your point but it doesn't hold true for all games. We didn't lose the game at Bournemouth because the fullbacks were caught too far upfield, we lost because we conceded 2 goals through errors in judgement from Greer and Dunk. I don't believe their errors were caused because they were too distracted by the thought that the midfield might not provide enough cover for the fullbacks; they were just mistakes.

I believe the reason we are not far higher up the table lies with the attack rather than defence. If our strikers had converted a relatively small percentage of the chances they've been presented with then we wouldn't be having such inquests into tactics. All our forwards are more than capable of scoring goals at this level, hopefully they turned the tide at Bournemouth.

Agree with all this, but to only add that Greers goal came from a cross that was difficult to defend. He had to deal with a situation where the odds of success were marginal. Dunks penalty was more to do with Wilson being clever rather than him being reckless, and the other goal came about from two deflections off our players before it went in.
All the Bournemouth goals had an element of luck, whereas our goals were well taken.

I didn’t see any weakness in our strategy, just a good game of football where the result went against us, but that’s football.

 

[symyjym]

How many times have you heard the expression honeymoon period? I think it's spot on what the op wrote and facts tend to back it up. Look no further than Palace and Pulis.
It doesn't take 11 games to win a match. That's not panicking. I've seen enough of our performances to say Hyypia doesn't have it. Long term he will be a total disaster for this club.
A new manager will turn our club around.We have the players and everything else in place.

You cannot compare taking over a fully assembled squad as manager to coming to a club that had a complete overhaul and is starting from scratch.

 

[father_and_son]

I believe the reason we are not far higher up the table lies with the attack rather than defence. If our strikers had converted a relatively small percentage of the chances they've been presented with then we wouldn't be having such inquests into tactics. All our forwards are more than capable of scoring goals at this level, hopefully they turned the tide at Bournemouth.

Absolutely this. I recall a general clamour on here for the last season or two for more attacking football, with the comment frequently added "I don't care if we concede, so long as we score". The system Sami is trying to play is more attacking, it does push more of the team forward abut does leave us more vulnerable to the break than before. If we can add "clinical finishing" to the current tactics, then the debate will end and we'll all be content because the results will be in our favour and the football will be exciting for a change!

 

[Monsieur Le Plonk]

Absolutely this. I recall a general clamour on here for the last season or two for more attacking football, with the comment frequently added "I don't care if we concede, so long as we score". The system Sami is trying to play is more attacking, it does push more of the team forward abut does leave us more vulnerable to the break than before. If we can add "clinical finishing" to the current tactics, then the debate will end and we'll all be content because the results will be in our favour and the football will be exciting for a change!

I suppose you could call it fun attacking like banshees and playing such a high line. I don't get a lot of fun from the results we have been getting of late and I'm sure neither do you though.
And that big 'if' of clinical finishing is not something that looks likely to address itself and even if we do manage to click a bit better up front, if we keep inviting teams to score from every attack they contrive then the net result is going to be the same.

 

[father_and_son]

I suppose you could call it fun attacking like banshees and playing such a high line. I don't get a lot of fun from the results we have been getting of late and I'm sure neither do you though.
And that big 'if' of clinical finishing is not something that looks likely to address itself and even if we do manage to click a bit better up front, if we keep inviting teams to score from every attack they contrive then the net result is going to be the same.

I think we are reaching the stage defensively where the opposition are scoring from every "mistake" not every attack. And I agree, the clinical finishing won't come from the forwards we have... KLL up one wing with Bruno supporting him. Tex up the other with AC supporting him. Paddy doing a Pele up the middle without anyone needing to support him and we have almost all the pieces in place... but we do need someone who can be in the 6yd box, stick out a leg or a head and actually get the ball in the net. I don't see anyone in our squad who can do this. January can't come soon enough!!

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

Soccernomics:

"Warwick Business schools analysed sackings from 1992 to 2008 in the Premier League and found that there is a boost for a short honeymoon period. The short honeymoon period is easy to explain - the average club earns 1.3 points per game and typically sack their manager when it averages only 1 point per game - a low point. Any statistician can predict what should happen after a low point whether or not the club sacks its manager, or changes its brand of teacakes - its performance will regress to the mean. Simply put, from a very low point, you are always likely to improve"

"Whatever the reason for hitting a low, things will almost inevitably improve afterwards. The new manager rarely causes the pendulum to swing - he's just the beneficiary. Perhaps some players do briefly work harder to impress him, but on that logic clubs should sack managers even more often".

Make of that what you will.

i see what your saying, we have been buying the wrong sort of teacakes. Co-incidentally i'm about to go into the teacake business and so i should get the club to have my teacakes then not only will results improve but i can then increase the price 10 fold as they become "performance enhancing teacakes"

 

[Bold Seagull]

But for the record I say again that its unlikely that you have found the flaw in our play whilst our current staff havent, so you fill your boots concerning tactics but please accept that I am not going to take you too seriously.

So, what did you think last night? As far as I concerned, last night Sami dropped the need for the full backs to provide our width, and set us up pretty much like Oscar or Gus would have done with a solid back four, 2 holding midfielders, 2 wide midfielders, 1 advanced midfielder and a forward. Elliott Bennett hugged the touchline for much of the game constantly giving Calderon an option. It was the first time I've seen him make such a change to his tactics this season.

We still didn't play well, but the clean sheet and 3 points will do us good. You'd have to assume he'll stick with these tactics for Saturday today, and for that I hope he does. Perhaps the current staff read my posts eh!?

 

[Brovion]

Ha! Where all all you Hyppia knockers now? That result's shut you up hasn't it?

Sorry, but I LOVE threads like that! (Was going to start one but thought I'd just hijack this one!)

 

[Triggaaar]

I am a firm believer in methodical planning and hard word producing results over time. As long as this is being done, I expect results to improve. If it is not, then clearly it is down to TB and the senior management in the club to identify that things are unlikely to improve, and make the change. It would be rash at the minumum, or just plain criminally short-sighted to make a panic change at this stage, based solely on a short run of poor results.

It's difficult for TB & co. I thought we played some decent football this season, but results didn't go our way - then yesterday was the opposite (which was understandable, when holding on to a lead for so long at a time that confidence is shot). Like you say, if the work is being done right, and they see signs of improvement, changing the manager now would be short sighted.

Due to our poor start, all we actually have to do this season is avoid being relegated, and prepare for next season.

 

[Perkino]

Wow I see your point...Leeds are a perfect example of how changing the manager makes sod all difference

 

[BigGully]

So, what did you think last night? As far as I concerned, last night Sami dropped the need for the full backs to provide our width, and set us up pretty much like Oscar or Gus would have done with a solid back four, 2 holding midfielders, 2 wide midfielders, 1 advanced midfielder and a forward. Elliott Bennett hugged the touchline for much of the game constantly giving Calderon an option. It was the first time I've seen him make such a change to his tactics this season.

We still didn't play well, but the clean sheet and 3 points will do us good. You'd have to assume he'll stick with these tactics for Saturday today, and for that I hope he does. Perhaps the current staff read my posts eh!?

I didnt see the game, but you havent seemed to have factored in the opposition, which is an absolute critical part of any game plan.

It can be quite difficult to assess a teams tactical position, to even interpret a teams tactical approach itself takes some skill, its very likely that your interpretation of it is not what Sami and his staff interpret it.

 

[El Presidente]

I didnt see the game, but you havent seemed to have factored in the opposition, which is an absolute critical part of any game plan.

It can be quite difficult to assess a teams tactical position, to even interpret a teams tactical approach itself takes some skill, its very likely that your interpretation of it is not what Sami and his staff interpret it.

Agreed, we are all tactical experts, despite having no qualifications to do so, apart from playing the game when we were kids or amateurs, and a few hours on Championship Manager.

It's a bit like criticising a surgeon on the basis of having a box set of Grey's Anatomy, and having received 'Operation' as a Christmas present when we were 12, whereas he/she spent 7 years in medical school.

 

[Bwian]

You cannot compare taking over a fully assembled squad as manager to coming to a club that had a complete overhaul and is starting from scratch.

Spot on. We've only got to look at Southampton for another perfect example...