[Football] Who’s not watching the World Cup?

[Springal]

Kane and whoever else wears the armband should rightfully be carded if those are rules. It also shows complete disrespect to the host nation and acheives nothing. Funny how fans would boo taking the knee when players take a stand against people being oppressed or marginalised but not so on this issue. Hypocrisy

Yeah where was this energy in Russia ? Or when it came out the £160 shirts the England players wear are made by workers earning 21p an hour in Bangladesh - I don’t think this was even challenged or commented on

If they really do believe in this then they need to stick it it and take any punishment that is quite rightly given out. Otherwise it’s a bit of a gesture politics nonsense

 

[abc]

Let's make no bones about it, it was because I was a f***ing idiot. There was certainly a time when I wasn't going to take an interest. All evidence pointed to the contrary but I was duped into believing the WC may be the catalyst to better international relations for and with Russia. If I am really honest and looking a little deeper it may have been that I was looking for reasons why it was okay to get excited about the world cup because that is what I have always done.
Maybe it just wasn't enough to stop me from looking the other way. Maybe it is also why I am not feeling like giving the benefit of the doubt to this one. Fool me once and all that.

A refreshingly honest post that I and I’m sure many others on here can relate to - if we are equally honest

 

[Hamilton]

Just to be clear, in 1978 Argentina was run by a right wing military Junta who "disappeared" people at regular intervals, caused a war in the Falklands and are estimated to have killed circa 30,000 people in a seven year reign.

Spain hosted the World Cup in '82, seven years after Franco was ousted and, to this day, Catalans and Basques fight for the separatism they probably deserve.

In 2018 we were all ok with Russia hosting the tournament, despite the fact it had illegally been in Ukraine for four years or so. They are now attempting to start World War Three.

And only in 2021 the Euros took off around the whole of Europe despite a global pandemic and climate crisis, including, in Hungary, a country that treats LGBTQ+ people just as badly as Qatar, only more sneakily, and without the excuse of millennia of religious and tribal culture that very few in the West understand.

But this is your red line?

You may have been OK with Russia hosting the World Cup. I wasn't. And yes, happy for this to be a red line.

Let's also be clear that neither Argentina or Spain bought the World Cup. In fact, Argentina was awarded the world cup before the military coup. The head of its bid to secure the WC was actually assassinated two years before the competition, some believe by the Naval elite who then went on to rule the country.

I've seen this 'Hungary' flag waved a couple of times. It's true that LGBTQ rights are under threat in many countries - in Hungary it is still not illegal. I fail to see why that should mean that we should not stand up for LGBTQ rights when we see them so clearly abused.

Bear in mind that the Qatari Women's team was set up as a ruse to win over delegates in 2010. Since winning the WC there has been no investment in the women's game in Qatar. Since the bid was won, the smokescreen women's team was disbanded.

Add to that the appalling treatment of migrant workers which, had it not been for the work of organisations like Amnesty International would have gone unnoticed, and you have a regime in FIFA and Qatar who deserve to be shunned.

Is that enough of a red line for you?

 

[Guinness Boy]

You may have been OK with Russia hosting the World Cup. I wasn't. And yes, happy for this to be a red line.

Let's also be clear that neither Argentina or Spain bought the World Cup. In fact, Argentina was awarded the world cup before the military coup. The head of its bid to secure the WC was actually assassinated two years before the competition, some believe by the Naval elite who then went on to rule the country.

I've seen this 'Hungary' flag waved a couple of times. It's true that LGBTQ rights are under threat in many countries - in Hungary it is still not illegal. I fail to see why that should mean that we should not stand up for LGBTQ rights when we see them so clearly abused.

Bear in mind that the Qatari Women's team was set up as a ruse to win over delegates in 2010. Since winning the WC there has been no investment in the women's game in Qatar. Since the bid was won, the smokescreen women's team was disbanded.

Add to that the appalling treatment of migrant workers which, had it not been for the work of organisations like Amnesty International would have gone unnoticed, and you have a regime in FIFA and Qatar who deserve to be shunned.

Is that enough of a red line for you?

Well, let's be clear, all of my post was whataboutary. It doesn't mean I support the World Cup going to Qatar. I do, however, personally feel that not turning on my telly won't make a blind bit of difference to a country and regime that's built on millennia of tribal and Islamic culture.

There are two things that may come out of this tournament and they are independent of each other. The first is most likely and it is that the grim reality of the tournament itself will stop FIFA making such an obviously poor decision in the future. I think we're starting to see that already. Multiple domestic leagues interrupted and yet the opening game featured a host nation team full of farmers who'd struggle to compete with Aldershot, and their entitled fans doing one after 70 minutes. We've had issues with a sponsor and the provision of beer, ongoing issues with the One Love armband, Infantino looking like a prize idiot. There will be people even in a corrupt quango like FIFA who will be saying "this can never happen again".

The second is that a seed of a tiny bit of change may be sown. That the light we shine on Qatar will somehow reflect back on them and they think "hang on, the rest of the world thinks a bit differently". I don't see it in this generation but maybe the next or the one after that.

A couple of other points though. Firstly, there was a feature on the BBC on women's football in Qatar which is quite clearly still going. You wouldn't have seen it because you're not watching and therefore denying yourself a view of that side of the argument.

Secondly things are bad enough in Hungary without needing the law. In fact there are homophobic attacks that are ignored by a crypto fascist government. Sauce? The Hungarian guy I worked with for the last 18 months who had to get him and his family out and he's only "a bit liberal" in his words. This is also a country whose ultras regularly seem to get away with racially abusing opponents.

They're not Arabs though, are they?

 

[Insel affe]

Bear in mind that the Qatari Women's team was set up as a ruse to win over delegates in 2010. Since winning the WC there has been no investment in the women's game in Qatar. Since the bid was won, the smokescreen women's team was disbanded.

Indeed and they have the cheek to advertise on Talkshite that one of the stadiums that have been built is "intended to be the home of the women's national team"...

intended....

Never gonna happen.

 

[chickens]

Football is never going to make a difference. That's a FIFA pushed, Coca Cola strap line. But Russia is a bigger threat to our existence than Qatar and the Argentina of the 70s and 80s killed more innocent people. That's just a fact.

Call it whataboutary if you want (and it is) but people only seem to care about the "political look" of a tournament when social media makes them make a public commitment.

This tournament is ridiculous. It's ridiculous because it's in a tiny country that's still hotter than a European summer in its winter, it's wrecked domestic league schedules and it's allowed in a pub team "supported" by robe-clad businessmen who can't spell football, possibly backed by corrupt referees and officials (we'll see). But to say Qatar deserves to be legitimised less than Russia or late 70s era Argentina is, I'm afraid, quite Islamophobic.

Sorry GB, with respect, you’re way out of line here.

It’s really easy to be sneering and dismissive of people who’ve made a different choice to you, because then you can bask in the approbation of those who feel similarly to you.

However, many of us (as we get older) realise that almost every action we take in our interactions with the outside world have a political consequence.

Many of us have joined the dots between the continuing degradation of our moral values and human decency, and the fact that by participating in events where abuses have taken place (however passively, TV viewing figures, sponsors product sales etc are tracked) we tacitly give the thumbs up to some pretty horrible stuff.

Now, you’re right that as a child and a younger man I wouldn’t have looked into the backdrop of a football event, I just wanted to get drunk and watch football. Some of us move on from that, some of us don’t.

Now I’m fine with you living your life, even though when someone says migrant workers to me, I don’t think of ants on an ant hill, I think of people who were somebody’s son or daughter, somebody’s husband or wife, potentially somebody’s mum or dad.

We get it, you don’t care. Maybe jog on to one of the many World Cup based threads available on this forum? There’s plenty to choose from.

 

[keaton]

Well, let's be clear, all of my post was whataboutary. It doesn't mean I support the World Cup going to Qatar. I do, however, personally feel that not turning on my telly won't make a blind bit of difference to a country and regime that's built on millennia of tribal and Islamic culture.

There are two things that may come out of this tournament and they are independent of each other. The first is most likely and it is that the grim reality of the tournament itself will stop FIFA making such an obviously poor decision in the future. I think we're starting to see that already. Multiple domestic leagues interrupted and yet the opening game featured a host nation team full of farmers who'd struggle to compete with Aldershot, and their entitled fans doing one after 70 minutes. We've had issues with a sponsor and the provision of beer, ongoing issues with the One Love armband, Infantino looking like a prize idiot. There will be people even in a corrupt quango like FIFA who will be saying "this can never happen again".

The second is that a seed of a tiny bit of change may be sown. That the light we shine on Qatar will somehow reflect back on them and they think "hang on, the rest of the world thinks a bit differently". I don't see it in this generation but maybe the next or the one after that.

A couple of other points though. Firstly, there was a feature on the BBC on women's football in Qatar which is quite clearly still going. You wouldn't have seen it because you're not watching and therefore denying yourself a view of that side of the argument.

Secondly things are bad enough in Hungary without needing the law. In fact there are homophobic attacks that are ignored by a crypto fascist government. Sauce? The Hungarian guy I worked with for the last 18 months who had to get him and his family out and he's only "a bit liberal" in his words. This is also a country whose ultras regularly seem to get away with racially abusing opponents.

They're not Arabs though, are they?

I don't think you do yourself or the discussion any good playing the racism/islamophobia card.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Sorry GB, with respect, you’re way out of line here.

It’s really easy to be sneering and dismissive of people who’ve made a different choice to you, because then you can bask in the approbation of those who feel similarly to you.

However, many of us (as we get older) realise that almost every action we take in our interactions with the outside world have a political consequence.

Many of us have joined the dots between the continuing degradation of our moral values and human decency, and the fact that by participating in events where abuses have taken place (however passively, TV viewing figures, sponsors product sales etc are tracked) we tacitly give the thumbs up to some pretty horrible stuff.

Now, you’re right that as a child and a younger man I wouldn’t have looked into the backdrop of a football event, I just wanted to get drunk and watch football. Some of us move on from that, some of us don’t.

Now I’m fine with you living your life, even though when someone says migrant workers to me, I don’t think of ants on an ant hill, I think of people who were somebody’s son or daughter, somebody’s husband or wife, potentially somebody’s mum or dad.

We get it, you don’t care. Maybe jog on to one of the many World Cup based threads available on this forum? There’s plenty to choose from.

How many migrant workers do you think die across the Middle East on other projects that are not World Cup related? Those skyscrapers didn't build themselves. Do you check before you spend your money on something that it's not with a multinational with a nice new office in Doha, Dubai or Riyadh?

 

[Hugo Rune]

Qatar have won. No One Love armbands for captains of various European teams.

Homophobia is alive and thriving in the Middle East.

The FA have buckled.

Just another reason not to get involved with this car crash of a tournament.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

You may have been OK with Russia hosting the World Cup. I wasn't. And yes, happy for this to be a red line.

Let's also be clear that neither Argentina or Spain bought the World Cup. In fact, Argentina was awarded the world cup before the military coup. The head of its bid to secure the WC was actually assassinated two years before the competition, some believe by the Naval elite who then went on to rule the country.

I've seen this 'Hungary' flag waved a couple of times. It's true that LGBTQ rights are under threat in many countries - in Hungary it is still not illegal. I fail to see why that should mean that we should not stand up for LGBTQ rights when we see them so clearly abused.

Bear in mind that the Qatari Women's team was set up as a ruse to win over delegates in 2010. Since winning the WC there has been no investment in the women's game in Qatar. Since the bid was won, the smokescreen women's team was disbanded.

Add to that the appalling treatment of migrant workers which, had it not been for the work of organisations like Amnesty International would have gone unnoticed, and you have a regime in FIFA and Qatar who deserve to be shunned.

Is that enough of a red line for you?

I fully agree that the World Cup shouldn't have been awarded to Qatar for all the reasons stated. But I do think there is value in not just looking at Qatar as an isolated case but also considering our own situation and previous tournaments. A 2009 study showed that migrant workers in the UK construction industry were twice as likely to die as their UK counterparts. In 1966 the World Cup was awarded to Britain despite homosexuality being illegal in the UK at the time and women's football being banned in England. We've obviously come a huge way since then and the Qatar World Cup feels like a horrible return to the old days. This World Cup will feel forever tainted, but we don't bring up these issues when celebrating our own tournament and victory in 66. Is that hypocrisy?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I think that the captains of the civilised nations should get on the blower today and agree for the captains to wear the arm band, refuse to take it off, and to pass it to another player when given a second yellow, and so on, get the game abandoned then get on the first flight out of the shit hole. This world cup now has to be destroyed.

 

[Insel affe]

Qatar have won. No One Love armbands for captains of various European teams.

Homophobia is alive and thriving in the Middle East.

The FA have buckled.

Just another reason not to get involved with this car crash of a tournament.

kane needs to have one love vest under his shirt, trouble is he probably won't score though.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Yep, making a stance with the arm bands didn't last long.

 

[chickens]

How many migrant workers do you think die across the Middle East on other projects that are not World Cup related? Those skyscrapers didn't build themselves. Do you check before you spend your money on something that it's not with a multinational with a nice new office in Doha, Dubai or Riyadh?

Oh I’m not claiming perfection and that I’m sitting here surrounded by products made by myself weaved entirely from hemp, but I try to avoid the very worst offenders. Where there are clear and obvious abuses that I know about, I change my behaviour to avoid those organisations as far as I reasonably can.

We all have blind spots and are ignorant about a lot of what goes on in the world, but I do my utmost to not feed the monster when these abuses are carried out in plain sight and widely reported on. You’re still engaging in whataboutery btw.

 

[TWOCHOICEStom]

Maybe if we'd have shown some backbone a few years ago and said we're not participating in this shitty tournament we wouldn't have to worry about the one love armband at all....

 

[Guinness Boy]

I don't think you do yourself or the discussion any good playing the racism/islamophobia card.

I'd say more cultural imperialism than islamophobia.

They do not think Wester Liberal Democratic values are better and never will. Should we only ever hold tournaments in places where "we" agree with the local culture? And who are "we"?

Qatar is wholly unsuitable because it is too hot, too small, too corrupt and has a really shit football team. There are honestly things the Tories have done this summer (e.g. Rwanda) that would make me think twice about an England based tournament if all we were going on was the the ruling elite.

 

[Questions]

I’m not going to leave work early for any match. I might not bother even watching it although I admit I watched some of the Brighton boys last night… The World Cup nobody wants.

 

[Originunknown]

Maybe if we'd have shown some backbone a few years ago and said we're not participating in this shitty tournament we wouldn't have to worry about the one love armband at all....

Quite right, it's hardly going to change anything by wearing an armband whilst willfully participating.

 

[Questions]

“The second is that a seed of a tiny bit of change may be sown. That the light we shine on Qatar will somehow reflect back on them and they think "hang on, the rest of the world thinks a bit differently". I don't see it in this generation but maybe the next or the one after that.”

I wish Guinness Boy

 

[BBassic]

Oh I’m not claiming perfection and that I’m sitting here surrounded by products made by myself weaved entirely from hemp, but I try to avoid the very worst offenders. Where there are clear and obvious abuses that I know about, I change my behaviour to avoid those organisations as far as I reasonably can.

This is the thing for me. I mentioned it earlier in this thread. There's only so much you can do.

I'm choosing not to watch this WC because of various reasons already stated by multiple people in this thread. But I watched a bit of the Russia WC.
I watch the Premier League which itself has dubious petro-states owned clubs. In order to not be considered a hypocrit I'd need to put the brakes on watching the Premier League too. And I'd need to stop using Twitter because of the Saudi investment. Ditto with Disney.

But then, really, I'd need to make sure none of the electronics I have in my house have any conflict materials in them. The clothes I buy have probably been through some shady factory in Asia.

It's almost impossible, I feel, to exist in the modern world and not be participating, either actively or passively, in some kind of questionable treatment of people or of the environment.

So you have to put your foot down where you can. This WC is one I feel I can.

People can call me hypocritical if they like, I'm still not watching it. And I'm not going to get all high-horsey about other people choosing to watch it. Because it's hard to stay clean in this filthy world.