[Misc] Who taps us on the shoulder and says "time you stopped driving old fruit"?

[Zeberdi]

Exactly this. Retest every decade (same test that learners take), If you fail, 3 months to pass before your licence is taken away. Increase to every 5 years over 65 and every 3 over 75. I believe 95% of people will pass with a couple of hours 'refresher' lessons, but it's not the 95% that are the worry.

Being allowed to drive tons of metal around at high speed because you once passed a test over 50 years ago is absolute madness.

A few hours won’t get pensioners through a new driving test at least not the first one at 70.

None of them took the theory test in order to start driving if they qualified after 1996 - they often don’t have sat navs, many older pensioners are not so internet literate, nor do they have the sort of smart screen reactions you need to pass the on screen hazard test. The short-term memory of people as they get older also naturally diminishes - making Pensioners take the full learners test would unfairly disadvantage them I believe , when 95% of them (your stats) pose no more additional risk to the roads because of their age, than any other group of drivers - in fact they pose far less because they are far more self-limiting than any other age group.

By all means have some form of testing but making pensioners go through a whole new driving test every 5 years, then every 3, when you don’t do it for any other age group is unfair imo and would require more than a ‘couple of hours refreshers’ which could be a serious additional financial burden to all those on State pensions. It would also become a great source of anxiety for pensioners who would be living in fear that their independence and social mobility would be severely curtailed if they lost their licence. (Many pensioners are unable to manage public transport or walking the comparatively long distances when they don’t have a car - not everyone has family members that can taxi them around)

That said, there are ways that could help pensioners be more safer on the roads without banning them from them unless it was absolutely necessary. I’d be in favour of increasing the safety of elderly road users (because they are disproportionately killed in RTAs due to their physical frailty) by perhaps some versions of the following:

• providing the DVLA with annual medical tests (including optician report and basic cognitive function)
• Age specific flexible licensing system - restricting motorway and distances and type of car (eg only automatic) etc
• Being informed by their doctors if they have a legally declarable condition that will impact on their ability to drive
• Better warnings when dispensing medication, on packaging, about the impact of some medications on driving.
• Better and faster screening and diagnosis for early signs of dementia related illnesses for those over 60

As for not knowing you are losing your faculties to the point you are a danger, in my experience of working with people with dementia and speaking to their families, most people they know long before it is advanced enough for them not to, if that makes sense, that their brains are getting foggy or that they are experiencing loss of concentration and unusual short-term memory loss and other neurological issues - they just don’t like to be told or willingly admit it. So I have found an affirming and supportive approach is essential, not one that is controlling or invalidating of people’s sense of independence.

 

[WATFORD zero]

A few hours won’t get pensioners through a new driving test at least not the first one at 70.

None of them took the theory test in order to start driving if they qualified after 1996 - they often don’t have sat navs, many older pensioners are not so internet literate, nor do they have the sort of smart screen reactions you need to pass the on screen hazard test. The short-term memory of people as they get older also naturally diminishes - making Pensioners take the full learners test would unfairly disadvantage them I believe , when 95% of them (your stats) pose no more additional risk to the roads because of their age, than any other group of drivers - in fact they pose far less because they are far more self-limiting than any other age group.

By all means have some form of testing but making pensioners go through a whole new driving test every 5 years, then every 3, when you don’t do it for any other age group is unfair imo and would require more than a ‘couple of hours refreshers’ which could be a serious additional financial burden to all those on State pensions. It would also become a great source of anxiety for pensioners who would be living in fear that their independence and social mobility would be severely curtailed if they lost their licence. (Many pensioners are unable to manage public transport or walking the comparatively long distances when they don’t have a car - not everyone has family members that can taxi them around)

That said, there are ways that could help pensioners be more safer on the roads without banning them from them unless it was absolutely necessary. I’d be in favour of increasing the safety of elderly road users (because they are disproportionately killed in RTAs due to their physical frailty) by perhaps some versions of the following:

• providing the DVLA with annual medical tests (including optician report and basic cognitive function)
• Age specific flexible licensing system - restricting motorway and distances and type of car (eg only automatic) etc
• Being informed by their doctors if they have a legally declarable condition that will impact on their ability to drive
• Better warnings when dispensing medication, on packaging, about the impact of some medications on driving.
• Better and faster screening and diagnosis for early signs of dementia related illnesses for those over 60

As for not knowing you are losing your faculties to the point you are a danger, in my experience of working with people with dementia and speaking to their families, most people they know long before it is advanced enough for them not to, if that makes sense, that their brains are getting foggy or that they are experiencing loss of concentration and unusual short-term memory loss and other neurological issues - they just don’t like to be told or willingly admit it. So I have found an affirming and supportive approach is essential, not one that is controlling or invalidating of people’s sense of independence.

I wasn't suggesting the theory test, just the practical (to be fair I hadn't even considered the theory test). You make some very good points, but if someone is going to take responsibility for controlling a heavy lump of metal moving quickly (which, in the wrong situation could very quickly become a deadly weapon), I really don't think it's too much to ask that they prove they are capable on a regular basis.

Any regular driver with reasonable experience should be able to pass the current practical test with a couple of hours tuition whatever they're age as it's simply driving for 40 mins without doing something dangerous. That's what kids with no experience have to do to get on the road. I suspect that a huge proportion wouldn't even need a refresher.

I'm afraid that if they are incapable of that, then they are unsafe to be behind the wheel of a couple of tons of metal, whatever their age or situation

 

[Zeberdi]

I wasn't suggesting the theory test, just the practical (to be fair I hadn't even considered the theory test). You make some very good points, but if someone is going to take responsibility for controlling a heavy lump of metal moving quickly (which, in the wrong situation could very quickly become a deadly weapon), I really don't think it's too much to ask that they prove they are capable on a regular basis.

Any regular driver with reasonable experience should be able to pass the current practical test with a couple of hours tuition whatever they're age as it's simply driving for 40 mins without doing something dangerous. That's what kids with no experience have to do to get on the road. I suspect that a huge proportion wouldn't even need a refresher.

I'm afraid that if they are incapable of that, then they are unsafe to be behind the wheel of a couple of tons of metal, whatever their age or situation

Ok, I understood you were saying everyone should take the ‘same test new learners take‘ see highlighted bold in my quote) - I take your point and agree, so maybe I could have added to my list above, a compulsory, refresher annual training course for ALL age groups (of the sort that are offered instead of points deductions or fines (NDORS)).

I still don’t think safety regulation should be in the form of having to pass the driving test again and again (even just the practical part) - many people fail their test again and again because they are very anxious in an examination situation. It does not make them bad drivers when they finally do pass. Additionally, a 17 year old (the age group with the highest pass rate) is also likely to be less reliant on a car than a 50 year old Mum with a bunch of kids or a bloke that drives for his trade etc - the greater consequences of failing a driving test is an added anxiety.

Learner drivers also are being tested to gain a licence not to see if they should lose it. There is a big difference psychologically. They also can take the test as often as they like until they pass ( and still can drive as learner drivers with a qualified driver so retain some autonomy over their choice to drive even if they fail their test .)

Just 32.3% of 60 year olds pass their driving test - that’s not because over 65% of 60 year olds are unsafe on the road but our capacity for coping with examinations decreases as we get older.

I think much of this debate boils down to a matter of opinion - ‘Protection’ laws should always be a balance between the level of risk that would occur without those laws in place and the freedom of the individual to have autonomous control over their own decision-making capabilities IMO. We can’t legislate ourselves into a completely injury free, accident free society.

I think we can improve the safety of elderly people (including those that might be showing signs of early dementia) with some of the measures I posted above without making people go through what could be a very stressful experience every 3 years or so.

https://www.passmefast.co.uk/resources/driving-trivia/news/pass-rates-age#

 

[WATFORD zero]

Ok, I understood you were saying everyone should take the ‘same test new learners take‘ see highlighted bold in my quote) - I take your point and agree, so maybe I could have added to my list above, a compulsory, refresher annual training course for ALL age groups (of the sort that are offered instead of points deductions or fines (NDORS)).

I still don’t think safety regulation should be in the form of having to pass the driving test again and again (even just the practical part) - many people fail their test again and again because they are very anxious in an examination situation. It does not make them bad drivers when they finally do pass. Additionally, a 17 year old (the age group with the highest pass rate) is also likely to be less reliant on a car than a 50 year old Mum with a bunch of kids or a bloke that drives for his trade etc - the greater consequences of failing a driving test is an added anxiety.

Learner drivers also are being tested to gain a licence not to see if they should lose it. There is a big difference psychologically. They also can take the test as often as they like until they pass ( and still can drive as learner drivers with a qualified driver so retain some autonomy over their choice to drive even if they fail their test .)

Just 32.3% of 60 year olds pass their driving test - that’s not because over 65% of 60 year olds are unsafe on the road but our capacity for coping with examinations decreases as we get older.

I think much of this debate boils down to a matter of opinion - ‘Protection’ laws should always be a balance between the level of risk that would occur without those laws in place and the freedom of the individual to have autonomous control over their own decision-making capabilities IMO. We can’t legislate ourselves into a completely injury free, accident free society.

I think we can improve the safety of elderly people (including those that might be showing signs of early dementia) with some of the measures I posted above without making people go through what could be a very stressful experience every 3 years or so.

https://www.passmefast.co.uk/resources/driving-trivia/news/pass-rates-age#

I would go for the annual test for all age groups but don't think that is really practical. (The idea of having 3 months to retake, as many times as needed) is the allowance made to existing licence holders over new licences. And I know this is not possible with the current state of the DSA, but that is true of so much British infrastructure, so let's not go there.

I simply don't think it's a 'right' to drive a motor vehicle. The six points within 2 years ban, serious insurance on young drivers, black boxes and not insuring them on anything faster than a Nissan Micra with bad asthma have been a great help in improving safety amongst young drivers, although more could be done. After all, who wants idiots passing their test and then buying a 3 litre Capri

I understand the pressure associated with tests, but at the moment, can't think of a way of checking that somebody can safely drive a car other than getting them to safely drive a car whilst being observed

And to finish, my offering to stereotyping is that the 'worst' drivers are men in their 50s and 60s who can be really aggressive 'know it all' t***ts

 

[chip]

After all, who wants idiots passing their test and then buying a 3 litre Capri

That's what I did and I still have it. I say to anyone silly enough to get in it that as I've had it over 30 years my driving must be really good as I've not had an accident and luck doesn't last this long, it must be skill .

And to finish, my offering to stereotyping is that the 'worst' drivers are men in their 50s and 60s who can be really aggressive 'know it all' t***ts

They're the same on bicycles too

 

[drew]

I'm all for far more testing of drivers (every 10 years as I said before, maybe also for anyone that picks up points on their licence). However, the only problem with this is that the DVSA that administer tests are run by morons who couldn't organise the proverbial piss up! We are three years on from the last lockdown yet they still can't get the backlog on test down. At Burgess Hill, if you wanted to book a test, excepting for the odd cancellation, you are currently looking at early December!!!

 

[Worried Man Blues]

My dad kept running into people on crossings...............he was on a mobility scooter and got them from behind!

 

[A mex eyecan]

i would have thought that three of the most important abilities old uns require and are quite easily tested are sight, special awareness and reaction speed. Surely that can’t be that difficult to sort.

 

[WATFORD zero]

...

 

[WATFORD zero]

That's what I did and I still have it. I say to anyone silly enough to get in it that as I've had it over 30 years my driving must be really good as I've not had an accident and luck doesn't last this long, it must be skill .


They're the same on bicycles too

A man of similar mind ...... and age

I got rid of mine long, long ago. I now have a 4 litre V8

 

[BLOCK F]

I would go for the annual test for all age groups but don't think that is really practical. (The idea of having 3 months to retake, as many times as needed) is the allowance made to existing licence holders over new licences. And I know this is not possible with the current state of the DSA, but that is true of so much British infrastructure, so let's not go there.

I simply don't think it's a 'right' to drive a motor vehicle. The six points within 2 years ban, serious insurance on young drivers, black boxes and not insuring them on anything faster than a Nissan Micra with bad asthma have been a great help in improving safety amongst young drivers, although more could be done. After all, who wants idiots passing their test and then buying a 3 litre Capri

I understand the pressure associated with tests, but at the moment, can't think of a way of checking that somebody can safely drive a car other than getting them to safely drive a car whilst being observed

And to finish, my offering to stereotyping is that the 'worst' drivers are men in their 50s and 60s who can be really aggressive 'know it all' t***ts

I would go for the annual test for all age groups but don't think that is really practical. (The idea of having 3 months to retake, as many times as needed) is the allowance made to existing licence holders over new licences. And I know this is not possible with the current state of the DSA, but that is true of so much British infrastructure, so let's not go there.

I simply don't think it's a 'right' to drive a motor vehicle. The six points within 2 years ban, serious insurance on young drivers, black boxes and not insuring them on anything faster than a Nissan Micra with bad asthma have been a great help in improving safety amongst young drivers, although more could be done. After all, who wants idiots passing their test and then buying a 3 litre Capri

I understand the pressure associated with tests, but at the moment, can't think of a way of checking that somebody can safely drive a car other than getting them to safely drive a car whilst being observed

And to finish, my offering to stereotyping is that the 'worst' drivers are men in their 50s and 60s who can be really aggressive 'know it all' t***ts

Excepting those who drive lovely Jaguar sports cars, maybe?