[Politics] When did this country become so cruel?

[Hastings gull]

I agree that Thatcher was not anti-charity, my argument with her ethos was that she wanted charity to largely replace the state rather than augment it.

Many will be born in Britain who for myriad reasons would not make model employees, that could be physical or mental health, intelligence, trauma suffered while in the womb (or after) and/or a whole lot more. I agree that people should strive to do what they can, providing it does not cause them persistent and otherwise unnecessary suffering.

Thatcher’s approach to this (not insignificant) section of society was largely along the lines of “let them eat cake.” Those who claim benefits are not living a life of luxury at the taxpayer’s expense, they’re the people who serve you at Costa, they’re the people processing your passport or driving licence renewal. They’re the workers who have kids and no partner.

Access to charity is patchwork, postcode dependent, and far more accessible in urban areas than rural ones. The state (in my opinion) should be ensuring that there’s a level playing field, access to education and opportunity for all who want it. Leaving it to charities to take up the slack leads to unequal provision, plus the risk of people refusing to take up charity through pride or fear of stigma.

Edit: HWT beat me to it, need to learn to type faster on a phone.

But there is access to education for all and thus opportunity that goes with it. After 40 years teaching, I can assure you that a very significant minority choose not to value this chance in life presented to them. Also, do DVLA pay their employees so little that they are all on benefits? That is truly scandalous!

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Of course she wasn't anti charity. She was keen for charity to fill the gas in a shrinking state! Whoever said she was anti charity is mad. But I don't recall anyone making such a claim on this thread.

And yet....she didn't do much for charity herself. She set up a foundation that appears to fund Oxford scholarhips, and she has supported the Raisa Gorbachev foundation. She was no Jeremy Corbyn (see reports of his activities over Christmases),

And America's rich philanthropists (several of whom created universities) are in a different league from ours.

This thread has gone down the usual path. Luckily the football's on.....

Her philosophy was brought in to the debate to illustrate the failing ‘psyche’ of Britain. We were told by several posters it was where it all started. I mentioned her anti state philosophy in my post you quoted. It is Liz Truss low taxation economics with the wealthy contributing through charity with further tax breaks. This thread very much hasn’t gone down the usual pathway…

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I agree that Thatcher was not anti-charity, my argument with her ethos was that she wanted charity to largely replace the state rather than augment it.

Many will be born in Britain who for myriad reasons would not make model employees, that could be physical or mental health, intelligence, trauma suffered while in the womb (or after) and/or a whole lot more. I agree that people should strive to do what they can, providing it does not cause them persistent and otherwise unnecessary suffering.

Thatcher’s approach to this (not insignificant) section of society was largely along the lines of “let them eat cake.” Those who claim benefits are not living a life of luxury at the taxpayer’s expense, they’re the people who serve you at Costa, they’re the people processing your passport or driving licence renewal. They’re the workers who have kids and no partner.

Access to charity is patchwork, postcode dependent, and far more accessible in urban areas than rural ones. The state (in my opinion) should be ensuring that there’s a level playing field, access to education and opportunity for all who want it. Leaving it to charities to take up the slack leads to unequal provision, plus the risk of people refusing to take up charity through pride or fear of stigma.

Edit: HWT beat me to it, need to learn to type faster on a phone.

Well, yes that was what I was saying but not what some of the early posters were saying.
Btw there is near enough a Flux of Pink Indians album title at the end of your second paragraph. Are you a fan ?

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

There is something deeply fishy about this.

* On disability benefits for multiple sclerosis and lupus but able to work the land to "feed 1,300 people"?
* Similarly, able to go about in her car delivering heavy bags of vegetables to the community?
* Has a huge variety of different crops, all grown from seed, despite starting in June 2022?
* Somehow grows enough crops to feed 1,300 people from that small plot, in the first year of trying?
* For no obvious reason, somebody has now "salted her land"
* Her GoFundMe account has suddenly risen from a small figure to £20k and counting...?

Call me a cynic, but...

Don’t suppose the Go Fund me target was conveniently £15,999 by any chance?

 

[chickens]

Well, yes that was what I was saying but not what some of the early posters were saying.

Btw there is near enough a Flux of Pink Indians album title at the end of your second paragraph. Are you a fan ?

Purely accidental, but I’ll be having a listen now. I suppose the real question is “would @HWT approve?”

 

[sparkie]

Yes, the country has fallen to its knees. An absolutely grim place now.

I think it is because a lot of people have very little money these days, and this puts them in a perpetual bad mood - which then results in cruel, selfish actions and opinions.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

But there is access to education for all and thus opportunity that goes with it. After 40 years teaching, I can assure you that a very significant minority choose not to value this chance in life presented to them. Also, do DVLA pay their employees so little that they are all on benefits? That is truly scandalous!

Civil servants don’t get paid as much as the private sector.
The vast majority of people on Universal Credit are working but need benefits to live.

 

[rogersix]

Oh, just shut up. Thatcher is nothing to do with it.

well thought thru'. re-read the op

 

[rogersix]

who said this:
"...the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate. "

who did that would be a better question

 

[chickens]

But there is access to education for all and thus opportunity that goes with it. After 40 years teaching, I can assure you that a very significant minority choose not to value this chance in life presented to them. Also, do DVLA pay their employees so little that they are all on benefits? That is truly scandalous!

I’m sorry to say that there isn’t. For those who live in villages where the bus service has been cut and courses start at 08:30, or are in the evening, the local college may as well be on the moon for all the use it is.

I agree that there are those who don’t value the opportunities afforded, but I don’t believe we should behave punitively toward them unless their behaviour is antisocial. Sometimes people aren’t mentally ready or focused, but that doesn’t mean they will never be.

As for Civil Service pay, my understanding from those who know is that the grunt work is performed at “AO” grade. Many of these staff already had UC claims, with (I understand) all full-time AO grade employees being eligible after the benefit rise that had to take place due to inflation this April.

I also understand that the grade above “AO” is “EO” which the Civil Service has previously described as supervisor/junior manager level. Staff at this level who are either single parents, or work shorter hours due to health or caring responsibilities were already eligible for Universal Credit, though I’ve no information on take-up.

 

[rogersix]

There is quite a lot of misunderstanding of Thatcherism on this thread. Her philosophy was anti state not anti charity. It lives on in America where I have seen wealthy philanthropists claiming in debate that they should choose the causes for which they donate their money rather than pay tax and have it decided by professionals. If we are going to deride Thatcherism let’s do it with some understanding of how it works.

but would wealthy british philanthropists banish poverty like they have in the states tho?

there maybe a flaw in your plan

 

[Sheebo]

Yes, the country has fallen to its knees. An absolutely grim place now.

I think it is because a lot of people have very little money these days, and this puts them in a perpetual bad mood - which then results in cruel, selfish actions and opinions.

Come in - cheer up that’s a bit gloomy - there’s still plenty of decent people about being nice

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

The truth will out with this story for sure.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

but would wealthy british philanthropists banish poverty like they have in the states tho?

there maybe a flaw in your plan

Unlike you to be hostile. I didn’t know I had a plan. I said I had seen them and did not say it was a good thing.

 

[rogersix]

Unlike you to be hostile. I didn’t know I had a plan.

did you see the wealthy philanthropists with your own eyes?

 

[Lenny Rider]

Q. When did this country become so cruel?

A. It didn't. It's just scum being scum. Far far outweighed by decent people. Just like anywhere else really

This.

Problem is bad news and the actions of scumbags all attract attention.


Newspapers have been replaced in the main by social media but it’s still the same as it ever was, people don’t like good news or positive actions.

 

[pastafarian]

Civil servants don’t get paid as much as the private sector.
The vast majority of people on Universal Credit are working but need benefits to live.

41% of UC claimants are in employment

Universal Credit statistics, 29 April 2013 to 14 July 2022

www.gov.uk

As for Civil Service pay, my understanding from those who know is that the grunt work is performed at “AO” grade. Many of these staff already had UC claims, with (I understand) all full-time AO grade employees being eligible after the benefit rise that had to take place due to inflation this April.

I also understand that the grade above “AO” is “EO” which the Civil Service has previously described as supervisor/junior manager level. Staff at this level who are either single parents, or work shorter hours due to health or caring responsibilities were already eligible for Universal Credit, though I’ve no information on take-up.

Seems a strange generalisation
Low income does not equal eligible to entitlement to be in receipt of the benefit.
Each persons entitlement is is determined by individual circumstances.
A single person in full time work for example with no kids and no rent (maybe lives with parents, owns their own home) is not going to get anything as their income will exceed their entitlement

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Don’t suppose the Go Fund me target was conveniently £15,999 by any chance?

Why didn’t you actually look, instead of trying to be ‘witty’?

It was set at £4000.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

41% of UC claimants are in employment

Universal Credit statistics, 29 April 2013 to 14 July 2022

www.gov.uk

Seems a strange generalisation
Low income does not equal eligible to entitlement to be in receipt of the benefit.
Each persons entitlement is is determined by individual circumstances.
A single person in full time work for example with no kids and no rent (maybe lives with parents, owns their own home) is not going to get anything as their income will exceed their entitlement

Of course, but many AO staff have families, and rent to pay. I retired in 2014, and my colleagues were all people with children, some single parents.

 

[pastafarian]

Of course, but many AO staff have families, and rent to pay. I retired in 2014, and my colleagues were all people with children, some single parents.

And just like any other line of work in any other industry, many will also not have families and rent to pay.

Of course, but many AO staff have families, and rent to pay. I retired in 2014, and my colleagues were all people with children, some single parents.

If you read what i highlighted "all full-time AO grade employees being eligible " you would understand that broad generalisation cannot be true