[Brighton] Western Road Redevelopment

[studio150]

would be excellent but is western road not too steep for a tram? certainly think queen's rd up to the station would be

Is Western Road not virtually level, and when trams did run in Brighton didn't they operate up and down Queens Road to the station.

Modern trams are far better and has been mentioned above many forward thinking cities are installing.

 

[macbeth]

Eh? Western Road is basically flat, and Queens Road only has a slight incline. They used to go up Elm Grove and New England Road!

well yes they both have slight inclines (certainly western road less so) when you usually see them in very flat areas. mind your point about elm grove is correct and if they can manage in Sheffield they'd be fine here I guess

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I can’t give any figures on historical tram routes but what I can tell you is I have been in the country 10 years and during the credit crunch they built numerous new tracks and added new routes, I got 3 new services outside my apartment alone. And during the pandemic they decided to extend further and are now in the process of connecting an entire new area to the network. So no, not all the infrastructure was already present.

The last point I highlighted is the most salient imho. Its not just about direct revenue, it’s more about the overall value they bring. The fact my whole neighbourhood was welcomely dug up for 5 years, with little resistance or moaning, to install new tracks, tells you all you need to know about public support. The most moaning I heard was when the roads finally reopened and we weren’t pedestrianised anymore. And it was also done when money was cheap. And this cycle starts again but further down the road. Why wouldn’t you do this

I'd, quite genuinely, be interested to know more about where you live to see why it makes sense there.
That there is an existing network to connect to will do a lot to help with the cost/benefit.
I'm sure that in your local context it made sense, but that doesn't mean trams would provide any net advantage over buses in Brighton, or that the cost of building an entirely new network from scratch could be justified.

 

[birthofanorange]

That Montpelier Road/Montpelier Terrace junction is bad enough with just cars there. They need to stick some double red lines around the area for the duration and change the signalling so buses aren't having to wait for traffic coming south down Montpelier Road, to turn into to Montpelier Terrace.

Indeed, and that's going to be compounded by the fact that buses will be serving the stop which is just after turning left into Montpelier Road.
It's going to be rather chaotic, methinks.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I'd, quite genuinely, be interested to know more about where you live to see why it makes sense there.
That there is an existing network to connect to will do a lot to help with the cost/benefit.
I'm sure that in your local context it made sense, but that doesn't mean trams would provide any net advantage over buses in Brighton, or that the cost of building an entirely new network from scratch could be justified.

Fair enough. But if you stand on Churchhill Square it’s utter chaos and looks a complete mess. I’ve had situations where there’s umpteen buses already at the stop, the bus I want pulls in behind them all, offloads and fills up then drives off. Less able people will miss their bus. When I stand outside my apartment and see trams zipping past every few minutes in a controlled fashion, it makes perfect sense to me.

 

[talk2knighty]

Give BVG a call, Im sure they can offer advice. In fact, there’s numerous countries you could call and ask.

Give BVG a call, Im sure they can offer advice. In fact, there’s numerous countries you could call and ask.

It would seem what Brighton & Hove need is a ‘Berlin Senate’ to chuck billions at the situation according to this article…..

The Berlin Senate is drowning the BVG in money. But what looks like an exaggeration at first glance is actually not enough.

Nineteen billion Euro (21.4 billion U.S. Dollars or 17 billion Pounds Sterling) is the amount Berlin’s public transport provider BVG will receive for the next fifteen years.

Berlin Senate Approves Billions for Public Transport Provider BVG

The Berlin Senate is drowning the BVG in money. But what looks like an exaggeration at first glance is actually not enough.

berlinspectator.com

 

[Badger Boy]

I'd, quite genuinely, be interested to know more about where you live to see why it makes sense there.
That there is an existing network to connect to will do a lot to help with the cost/benefit.
I'm sure that in your local context it made sense, but that doesn't mean trams would provide any net advantage over buses in Brighton, or that the cost of building an entirely new network from scratch could be justified.

I understand your cynicism and the funding question is of course the fundamental. But I think it's this type of attitude which would prevent ANY project from getting off the ground. The reality is that because of our minority council, nothing positive can realistically happen in Brighton and Hove at the moment. The thinking is muddled, the planning is a joke and their priorities are completely at odds which each other because there is a total lack of leadership.

What the City really needs is to sit down and properly consider how we can get back to being a positive stand out in the UK. I think the reputation of this city has fallen dramatically over the last decade because every department of the council is poorly run and it shows. There are potholes in every road, rubbish piles up throughout the city because the collections are infrequent and unreliable. Recycling bins aren't emptied quickly enough so people start stacking on the street next to them, then the team who collects the recycling is different to the on-street team so they'll leave behind anything stacked next to the bin. And so on and so forth.

All the time we have a minority council these problems can not be solved because the councillors simply do not work together for the benefit of the city.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

It would seem what Brighton & Hove need is a ‘Berlin Senate’ to chuck billions at the situation according to this article…..

The Berlin Senate is drowning the BVG in money. But what looks like an exaggeration at first glance is actually not enough.

Nineteen billion Euro (21.4 billion U.S. Dollars or 17 billion Pounds Sterling) is the amount Berlin’s public transport provider BVG will receive for the next fifteen years.

Berlin Senate Approves Billions for Public Transport Provider BVG

The Berlin Senate is drowning the BVG in money. But what looks like an exaggeration at first glance is actually not enough.

berlinspectator.com

Spend money and build a first class public service…..et voila. Quite easy really.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

They run on rails and are much easier to control, regulate and operate. Everytime I’m at Churchill Square there’s just a total mess of buses trying to pull up, pulling out, stopping, starting, stopping again. Its a complete mess. Contrast this to any modern European tram hub and youll see what I mean.

The current situation isn’t fit for purpose. And given the financial climate now is the time to do this. Makes perfect sense…..and it’s what other progressive nations are doing.

This. Even Croydon has managed to install a fantastic and extremely useful tram network that rightly relegates the private car to the peripheral. Never thought I'd say it, but in this instance Brighton could learn a lot from Croydon

 

[beorhthelm]

They run on rails and are much easier to control, regulate and operate. Everytime I’m at Churchill Square there’s just a total mess of buses trying to pull up, pulling out, stopping, starting, stopping again. Its a complete mess. Contrast this to any modern European tram hub and youll see what I mean.

The current situation isn’t fit for purpose. And given the financial climate now is the time to do this. Makes perfect sense…..and it’s what other progressive nations are doing.

which makes them more restricted and limited routes. trams need those rails going far beyond Churchill Square to be any benefit. i cant see why buses themselves are such a problem, other than because of their number. if thats the issue then fewer buses (as there would surely be with trams) is not much of a solution.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

which makes them more restricted and limited routes.

Might as well scrap trains then. Just fill the city with buses.

 

[beorhthelm]

A tram running between the bottom of North Street and Palmeira Square would work fantastically well. It would reduce the need to have and run so many buses, the routes would be shorter so should be more reliable and they could dramatically re-design the routes to open up better links between, for example, Mile Oak and Southwick/Shoreham. It's a radical idea, but I think it makes a lot of sense to separate Hove and Brighton and link them by a tram which would be far more efficient and cost effective. You could still have routes running between Hove and Brighton, for example you could still have the number 7 running from Hove to link Hove and Brighton stations, but then have it turn left on Queens Road down North Road and then send it up Edward Street instead of St James Street, which would be well served by the current 1 route starting from Old Steine. If you could re-design the routes from scratch, I think that would be the ideal. It could also lead to a new route running a bus from Brighton Marina (or Rottingdean) into Hove and beyond along the A259 which is currently ignored on all Brighton and Hove routes between the Pier and Station Road, Portslade.

put like though, good case for tram.

not against trams per se, just they need a broader thinking than "replace buses" where buses have become cornerstone of transport. there's some downsides and need thought to make them work.

 

[jcdenton08]

Might as well scrap trains then. Just fill the city with buses.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

which makes them more restricted and limited routes. trams need those rails going far beyond Churchill Square to be any benefit. i cant see why buses themselves are such a problem, other than because of their number. if thats the issue then fewer buses (as there would surely be with trams) is not much of a solution.

Imagine a dedicated tram service that served the Uni 365 days a year and looped round to serve the Amex 19 times a season. You could have a steady flow of trams with the capacity of bendy buses every 6 minutes or whatever, and there would be no need at all for P&R sites and the trains would no longer be a bone of contention. It really is a no-brainer. Or should be

 

[thedonkeycentrehalf]

Compared to some places, Brighton doesn't have that many wide roads to be able to add in such a system. There is also the issue of the sea when it comes to taking traffic around the city. That said, there are a few routes where a small light rail system could be part of a wider integrated transport system but unfortunately, we don't do integrated transport well in this country.

For example, this could work. A small network running from the station, down to the seafront and then along to the pier where one route continues to serve Kemp Town, Hospital and the Marina and another goes up Grand Parade and then the Lewes Road to the University. Bus interchanges at the station, Clock Tower, Pier, Marina and University could then feed other transport options such as bus and train. University would be the hub for the Amex (or even the other way around).

Westerly options are more limited but an option West to the King Alfred may work to provide a Western interchange.

Would prove popular with tourists and they could even light up the trams in Winter as a southern alternative to Blackpool.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Compared to some places, Brighton doesn't have that many wide roads to be able to add in such a system. There is also the issue of the sea when it comes to taking traffic around the city. That said, there are a few routes where a small light rail system could be part of a wider integrated transport system but unfortunately, we don't do integrated transport well in this country.

For example, this could work. A small network running from the station, down to the seafront and then along to the pier where one route continues to serve Kemp Town, Hospital and the Marina and another goes up Grand Parade and then the Lewes Road to the University. Bus interchanges at the station, Clock Tower, Pier, Marina and University could then feed other transport options such as bus and train. University would be the hub for the Amex (or even the other way around).

Westerly options are more limited but an option West to the King Alfred may work to provide a Western interchange.

Would prove popular with tourists and they could even light up the trams in Winter as a southern alternative to Blackpool.

It really is an absolute no-brainer for Brighton town to develop a smart modern tram system. Tho it'll doubtless take our pathetic politicians another half century to reach that conclusion

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

It really is an absolute no-brainer for Brighton town to develop a smart modern tram system. Tho it'll doubtless take our pathetic politicians another half century to reach that conclusion

That's alright then, they can spend that time saving up for the £500m it would probably cost.

 

[Badger Boy]

That's alright then, they can spend that time saving up for the £500m it would probably cost.

It's an investment and I'm certain that it would be a money making machine if probably implemented and well priced, plus selling advertising rights left, right and centre. I don't think the cost of the thing is the biggest barrier to getting it done, it's an excellent investment and one which is well worth making in towns and Cities like ours.

 

[theboybilly]

There's barely any shops left in Western Road already. Make it harder for shoppers to get there for 18m and there will be even fewer. It will look more pleasant once it's done but the actual shopfronts appear about 50% closed up. With high rents, business costs, less money to spend in shops and expensive parking, this will only be a cosmetic job that will only make a small debt in revitalising the area.

You can't keep trying to squeeze more and more cars into Brighton, its just not suited to cars. A tram would be a great idea, say from Worthing to Lewes with a tram every 5 minutes. It's not impossible. Look at the Elizabethan Line. It's transformed London travel (yes I know its not a tram but Brighton's project would be easier to do)