[Football] We are no better than last season at this point FACT

[El Presidente]

Are the figures quoted just for playing staff? Would they include back room staff, Barber, ect?

First team regulars.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

He doesn't pick team and tactics but he does supply that team, ie the players. Hughton was provided with the tools to get us promoted and he achieved that but history also shows he isn't the only manager capable of getting a team promoted!!

Also, to say that we wouldn't have achieved promotion also cannot be substantiated.

Like I said, it's opinions, mine will be that Bloom was more important and others will put it all down to Hughton. Not sure either side will convince the other to change their mind.

As we can only deal with facts and what has happened, I would say it can be very much substantiated, Hughton achieved where others had failed, despite having the investment and infrastructure (as you correctly point out). I am surprised you are even debating that point, as anything else is hypothetical.

Alan Mullery is the only other manager of course and he had Bamber behind him, but he still took over and shaped a team as per Hughton.

However, I think we can agree without Bloom the club as a whole would be nowhere near as successful as we have become and the whole infrastructure and managerial selection is down to him.

 

[El Presidente]

With respect a dose of reality is needed. Without Tony’s financial backing , we would probably be a league 2 side at best struggling to stay in the football league. CH was a cog in the wheel . Without the infrastructure in place, very hard for any manager to get a club promoted.

We have a top ground, training academy, top ceo , board that cares about the clubs best interests and a very generous benefactor that understands football in detail. We also had a decent manager and know have in my view an upgrade on manager with GP.

We are in dreamland playing in the PL all down to TB. Period.

All down to TB? I disagree, the players, managers and staff have had something to do with it too.

Is he the biggest single factor? Yes.

 

[drew]

As we can only deal with facts and what has happened, I would say it can be very much substantiated, Hughton achieved where others had failed, despite having the investment and infrastructure (as you correctly point out). I am surprised you are even debating that point, as anything else is hypothetical.

Alan Mullery is the only other manager of course and he had Bamber behind him, but he still took over and shaped a team as per Hughton.

However, I think we can agree without Bloom the club as a whole would be nowhere near as successful as we have become and the whole infrastructure and managerial selection is down to him.

You're missing the point. Yes it is undeniable that we got promoted under Hughton in 2016/17 but what you cannot substantiate is whether it would have happened with a different manager in charge. Maybe a year earlier, maybe a year later, we'll never know. That's the point I'm making.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

You're missing the point. Yes it is undeniable that we got promoted under Hughton in 2016/17 but what you cannot substantiate is whether it would have happened with a different manager in charge. Maybe a year earlier, maybe a year later, we'll never know. That's the point I'm making.

But as per your original point you cannot simply say it would have happened, because there is no way of knowing, that is why Hughton's achievement/role cannot be underestimated - and IMO remains one of the main reasons we went up.

Don't think we're going to agree - but that's fine........

 

[Weststander]

But as per your original point you cannot simply say it would have happened, because there is no way of knowing, that is why Hughton's achievement/role cannot be underestimated - and IMO remains one of the main reasons we went up.

Don't think we're going to agree - but that's fine........

We know it’s incredibly hard to gain promotion from the Championship, especially without parachute income. CH achieved automatic promotion, on the 6th largest payroll budget (excluding post promotion bonuses), brilliant work.

There are many big spending chairman in the Championship eg Derby and Massive, but they didn’t have CH.

 

[Icy Gull]

A thumbs down from me for any poster attempting to play down in any way the job CH did in getting us to the Premier League.

 

[pocketseagull]

A thumbs down from me for any poster attempting to play down in any way the job CH did in getting us to the Premier League.

yeah, I understand the debate regarding his sacking but not giving due credit to one of our greatest managers is seriously unclassy.

 

[drew]

We know it’s incredibly hard to gain promotion from the Championship, especially without parachute income. CH achieved automatic promotion, on the 6th largest payroll budget (excluding post promotion bonuses), brilliant work.

There are many big spending chairman in the Championship eg Derby and Massive, but they didn’t have CH.

And, not surprisingly, they didn't have Bloom (or for that matter the team he has assembled behind the scenes)!!

However, Morris has only had Derby for 4 years and is effing rich. Watch this space.

 

[Albion my Albion]

As I stated we are not going back to the championship (yet, he says ducking for cover) but we will finish around 2-4 points above the relegation line. Which matches the subject line of the thread, we are no better at this point and we will finish no better than last season, 2018-19.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

The reason it is dragging on is because you think the sun shines out of CH's backside and that he should never have been sacked, not from Newcastle, nor from Norwich and now from Brighton. Not everybody agreed with it at the time (for the record I did) but I would respectfully suggest that those Brighton fans watching the team are eternally grateful that TB did what he did and we are watching the football we see now rather than what we saw last season.

We're all grateful for his role in getting us where we are but most good things come to an end. We saw today how tactically aware Potter is, making changes at half time and switching it around. I'm afraid that isn't something we saw from CH last year.

1. I don't have a problem with Hughton being sacked - didn't agree with it when it happened - but it is done and dusted. My problem is with people who don't appreciate the difficulty of getting a team promoted from the Championship and then keeping that team in the PL for two years.

Only once in the last 8 years have the three promoted teams stayed up the following season - 2 years ago - Newcastle, Brighton and Huddersfield - and Huddersfield are gone. Last season the 3 teams that went down had been in the PL for 1 or 2 seasons. Norwich have been promoted 3 times and relegated twice (and will probably be relegated again this season) - QPR have been promoted and relegated twice - Hull have been promoted twice and relegated 3 times in the last 10 years - Burnley have been promoted twice and relegated twice - Cardiff have been promoted twice and relegated twice. Many of the relegated teams have spent significantly more than Brighton when they get promoted and still got relegated.

2. Potter has done well - nobody is denying that - and yes he has made tactical changes that have made a difference - but it must be recognised that Potter has more options in terms of the players at his disposal. This is not to minimise his achievements to date - but it is necessary to recognise that there are different circumstances. Could Hughton have done things differently - possibly - would it have kept the club in the PL - that is very much an open question.

I have repeatedly outlined that it can take 3-4 years to build a squad capable of maintaining PL status for clubs outside the top 6-8. Even then many teams struggle - Watford and Bournemouth were promoted in 2015. Keeping Brighton in the PL for the first two seasons after promotion is a massive achievement. If Potter keeps the team up this season (and it is looking very positive at the moment) - that will be a massive achievement. Another transfer window - another £60-80million spent on players will help consolidate the club further. But because of the nature of the PL the relegation scramble can hit any club - even after 6-8-10 years. The only club that has succeeded in breaking into the upper echelons of the PL since it was founded have been Leicester (Wolves are showing promise - but they still have to prove they can sustain it). I would love to see 15 teams being able to compete for the PL but the reality is that everyone else pretty much spends their season looking over their shoulder.

 

[blockhseagull]

1. I don't have a problem with Hughton being sacked - didn't agree with it when it happened - but it is done and dusted. My problem is with people who don't appreciate the difficulty of getting a team promoted from the Championship and then keeping that team in the PL for two years.

Only once in the last 8 years have the three promoted teams stayed up the following season - 2 years ago - Newcastle, Brighton and Huddersfield - and Huddersfield are gone. Last season the 3 teams that went down had been in the PL for 1 or 2 seasons. Norwich have been promoted 3 times and relegated twice (and will probably be relegated again this season) - QPR have been promoted and relegated twice - Hull have been promoted twice and relegated 3 times in the last 10 years - Burnley have been promoted twice and relegated twice - Cardiff have been promoted twice and relegated twice. Many of the relegated teams have spent significantly more than Brighton when they get promoted and still got relegated.

2. Potter has done well - nobody is denying that - and yes he has made tactical changes that have made a difference - but it must be recognised that Potter has more options in terms of the players at his disposal. This is not to minimise his achievements to date - but it is necessary to recognise that there are different circumstances. Could Hughton have done things differently - possibly - would it have kept the club in the PL - that is very much an open question.

I have repeatedly outlined that it can take 3-4 years to build a squad capable of maintaining PL status for clubs outside the top 6-8. Even then many teams struggle - Watford and Bournemouth were promoted in 2015. Keeping Brighton in the PL for the first two seasons after promotion is a massive achievement. If Potter keeps the team up this season (and it is looking very positive at the moment) - that will be a massive achievement. Another transfer window - another £60-80million spent on players will help consolidate the club further. But because of the nature of the PL the relegation scramble can hit any club - even after 6-8-10 years. The only club that has succeeded in breaking into the upper echelons of the PL since it was founded have been Leicester (Wolves are showing promise - but they still have to prove they can sustain it). I would love to see 15 teams being able to compete for the PL but the reality is that everyone else pretty much spends their season looking over their shoulder.

Not disagreeing with most of that

Just a question really, how has Potter got more players at his disposal than CH ?

We’ve only really added Webster, Trossard Mooy and Maupay and lost Knocky, Locadia and Andone.

Otherwise it is as it was pretty much

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

With respect a dose of reality is needed. Without Tony’s financial backing , we would probably be a league 2 side at best struggling to stay in the football league. CH was a cog in the wheel . Without the infrastructure in place, very hard for any manager to get a club promoted.

We have a top ground, training academy, top ceo , board that cares about the clubs best interests and a very generous benefactor that understands football in detail. We also had a decent manager and know have in my view an upgrade on manager with GP.

We are in dreamland playing in the PL all down to TB. Period.

No club can get promoted and stay in the PL without someone bankrolling them - but money doesn't automatically make the club a success - the richest club in the world (or at the very least top 3) have been languishing around the place for the past six years since Alex Ferguson left as manager - Liverpool, the 7th richest club in the world, have been trying to won the title since 1990, yet it was only with the arrival of Klopp that they finally look like doing it. Sunderland played at home on Boxing day - are currently 15th in League One - yet had almost 34,000 fans at the game. That is more than the average attendance at 11 PL clubs. Sunderland was owned up to recently by Ellis Short who is worth something like $1.6billion.

There are numerous examples of owners throwing vasts amounts of money into getting promoted and it blowing up in the club's face. Bloom has bankrolled the club to the tune of something like £220million and long may it continue because there is a massive gap between the income and expenditure of Brighton and the top 8-10 clubs.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Not disagreeing with most of that

Just a question really, how has Potter got more players at his disposal than CH ?

We’ve only really added Webster, Trossard Mooy and Maupay and lost Knocky, Locadia and Andone.

Otherwise it is as it was pretty much

Well to start - the players that came in are better than the ones that left (and that can be seen from where they are playing and how many games they are playing)

Potter also has Connolly and Alzate - and that is not to get into an argument about whether Hughton would have used them or not - it is just the reality that they are playing this season and didn't (indeed couldn't because they were injured) last season.

 

[blockhseagull]

Well to start - the players that came in are better than the ones that left (and that can be seen from where they are playing and how many games they are playing)

Potter also has Connolly and Alzate - and that is not to get into an argument about whether Hughton would have used them or not - it is just the reality that they are playing this season and didn't (indeed couldn't because they were injured) last season.

No because CH didn’t want to use them so he didn’t.

I don’t think any of your comparisons hold any water if I’m honest, the players that have come in have been trusted by Potter and that’s why they have played. There is plenty of evidence to show that CH didn’t trust many new players and had long period out of the side before they were involved.

I’m bored with comparing CH with Potter, they are both very different managers, CH did his bit and got us promoted and kept us up. We then needed someone with the tactical ability and coaching skills to move us to the next level. That isn’t a negative reflection on anyone, just facts as they are.

 

[Bob'n'weave]

1. I don't have a problem with Hughton being sacked - didn't agree with it when it happened - but it is done and dusted. My problem is with people who don't appreciate the difficulty of getting a team promoted from the Championship and then keeping that team in the PL for two years.

Only once in the last 8 years have the three promoted teams stayed up the following season - 2 years ago - Newcastle, Brighton and Huddersfield - and Huddersfield are gone. Last season the 3 teams that went down had been in the PL for 1 or 2 seasons. Norwich have been promoted 3 times and relegated twice (and will probably be relegated again this season) - QPR have been promoted and relegated twice - Hull have been promoted twice and relegated 3 times in the last 10 years - Burnley have been promoted twice and relegated twice - Cardiff have been promoted twice and relegated twice. Many of the relegated teams have spent significantly more than Brighton when they get promoted and still got relegated.

2. Potter has done well - nobody is denying that - and yes he has made tactical changes that have made a difference - but it must be recognised that Potter has more options in terms of the players at his disposal. This is not to minimise his achievements to date - but it is necessary to recognise that there are different circumstances. Could Hughton have done things differently - possibly - would it have kept the club in the PL - that is very much an open question.

I have repeatedly outlined that it can take 3-4 years to build a squad capable of maintaining PL status for clubs outside the top 6-8. Even then many teams struggle - Watford and Bournemouth were promoted in 2015. Keeping Brighton in the PL for the first two seasons after promotion is a massive achievement. If Potter keeps the team up this season (and it is looking very positive at the moment) - that will be a massive achievement. Another transfer window - another £60-80million spent on players will help consolidate the club further. But because of the nature of the PL the relegation scramble can hit any club - even after 6-8-10 years. The only club that has succeeded in breaking into the upper echelons of the PL since it was founded have been Leicester (Wolves are showing promise - but they still have to prove they can sustain it). I would love to see 15 teams being able to compete for the PL but the reality is that everyone else pretty much spends their season looking over their shoulder.

I'm not so sure about that. This season feels like we have two, three or even more options for a starting 11, with at least 5 or 6 changes in each, that we would all be happy with and expect a good performance. Chris saw team selection differently and used the squad his way, but it was still a 25 man squad. Or are you talking about injuries?

 

[GT49er]

No because CH didn’t want to use them so he didn’t.

Alzate and Connolly were both injured for considerable periods last season. As well as being a year younger ................ and on loan to progress their development.

Certainly CH didn't appear to trust some new players. Perhaps you're thinking of Locadia, Andone and Jahanbakhsh? So - perhaps he had a point - two of them promptly shipped out by his successor, and the third not getting a sniff for nearly five months!

 

[blockhseagull]

Alzate and Connolly were both injured for considerable periods last season. As well as being a year younger ................ and on loan to progress their development.

Certainly CH didn't appear to trust some new players. Perhaps you're thinking of Locadia, Andone and Jahanbakhsh? So - perhaps he had a point - two of them promptly shipped out by his successor, and the third not getting a sniff for nearly five months!

Correct.... for the back end of the season when they were both on loan.

Every player apart from Ryan and Propper have been made to wait.

 

[Icy Gull]

I think we need a musical contribution on this thread as it goes around and around


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYvEHlXRZlc

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

No because CH didn’t want to use them so he didn’t.

I don’t think any of your comparisons hold any water if I’m honest, the players that have come in have been trusted by Potter and that’s why they have played. There is plenty of evidence to show that CH didn’t trust many new players and had long period out of the side before they were involved.

Knockeart is playing in the championship with Fulham
Kayal is with Charlton in the Championship and has played 6 times this season.
Locadia is with Hoffenheim and has played 6 times
Andone is with Galatasaray - and has played 6 times for them.
And Hemed was released and he is with Charlton and has played 5 times for them.

Maybe the reason that Hughton didn't use these players more is that they just weren't good enough for PL football.

I’m bored with comparing CH with Potter, they are both very different managers, CH did his bit and got us promoted and kept us up. We then needed someone with the tactical ability and coaching skills to move us to the next level. That isn’t a negative reflection on anyone, just facts as they are.

It is quite tedious - but people insist on bringing it up. Hughton did a remarkable job for 4 1/2 years - Potter can build on that - whether he takes Brighton to the next level is still to be determined, but things have been positive so far.

I'm not so sure about that. This season feels like we have two, three or even more options for a starting 11, with at least 5 or 6 changes in each, that we would all be happy with and expect a good performance. Chris saw team selection differently and used the squad his way, but it was still a 25 man squad. Or are you talking about injuries?

Potter has four players who are better than what was in the squad last year (well three anyway - Webster still needs some work) - there is a reason why 3 of these players broke the Brighton transfer record and Mooy would have also done so if there was a transfer fee. On top of that two players have come through from underage and contributed effectively. For most games there are 5 or 6 players on the pitch who were not available to Hughton last season.

As others have said - this is going around in circles - it really is time to give it a rest - and just enjoy the show.