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[Albion] Was the Derby spanking a blessing in disguise?



I was a fan of Oscar, but in hindsight, if I'm being completely honest, this was as much a reaction towards the strong negative feelings I had towards Gus' departure than anything else

Yes, you've hit on a big truth there. I think a lot of discussion on NSC over the past season has been framed by that very thing.

I found that frustrating because I didn't think Oscar was being judged on his actual merits. It was almost as if making any criticism of Oscar's football was whitewashing the way Gus behaved. There was an emtional logic to that because if football is about anything, it is about experiencing extremes of emotion, that is what makes it addictive and fun.

For me, I was not masiively disappointed by Gus because I was never amazingly into his persona and manner from the moment he arrived. So all I was looking for from Oscar were signs that he was improving our play or at least not taking it backwards because of injuries and FFP.

I think it became clear after a few months that were 4 things that were noteworthy about Oscar's football and 3 of them were negative. First, our passing declined because he was allowing our defenders/midfielders to be less patient and fire more channel balls and direct long balls to the front men. Second, partly as a consequence of that our play became less satisfying to watch, we exerted less control over the ball and it was all so much more haphazard - I think this was a big factor in the sense many fans had that our football was becoming less entertaining. Third, we were scoring less goals because the chances we were creating were less clear cut, less a result of properly carving open defences, more a result of scrappy long balls and speculative shots from distance. Finally, we enhanced our reputation as a very disciplined defensive team, we kept the deep lying midfielder of Gus days (almost a third central defender) and Oscar got his central defending pair right, promoted good players like Ward/Ince to augment the system and got some consistency out of Calderon (let off too lightly by fans in my view for his hopeless defending against Bolasie in the Palace disaster). The iron efficiency of our defence carried us to a very unlikely play-off place, although the rank embarrassment of Pride Park for me degraded somewhat the miracle of the City Ground.

Overall, the balance sheet was negative but it seemed disloyal to say this because of the Gus mess.

Which is why I hope now we've all properly moved on and can judge the new manager on his merits. Speak freely about the good or the bad.

There is a view that we shouldn't really be saying anything bad because of Hereford, Gillingham, Withdean etc etc. But I don't agree with that - the club has moved on and taken a direction towards a very modern business model of revenue maximisation from fans and a corporatised vision of football. The quid pro quo of that is that we fans get to watch higher quality football than the bad old days when it was commonly understood fans had to pull together more so the club could survive. Our payback as fans is high quality football - and if the manager is not delivering that, we are entitled to say so - that for me is the deal.
 




Don Quixote

Well-known member
Nov 4, 2008
8,362
We are not going to change our style of football in any drastic way. At all. Not for a long time. People need to start realising that it is the club philosophy not a managers, the manager who comes in will fit that philosophy.

It emanates at all levels of the club, youth, academy, DS and first team to have a major change to the style and philosophy would mean wholesale change at all levels. It just aint gonna happen.

How long has this 'philosophy' been around for, and how long has the club been around for? It can be changed.
 


Sergei's Celebration

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2010
3,650
I've come back home.
How long has this 'philosophy' been around for, and how long has the club been around for? It can be changed.

Not saying it can't be changed. I am saying it is far more complicated than some appreciate as it's far more than getting 'a British manager who'll play 442'.
 


Hungry Joe

SINNEN
Oct 22, 2004
7,636
Heading for shore
it is far more complicated than some appreciate as it's far more than getting 'a British manager who'll play 442'.

That's an over-simplification I agree, but there are some fundamental changes in the overall type of player we need from the majority of those who have come into the club in the last few seasons if we are ever to be able to really compete in my opinion. I thought we were starting to get there when Razak came in, but obviously that didn't turn out so great in the end for a variety of reasons.
 


Seasidesage

New member
May 19, 2009
4,467
Brighton, United Kingdom
Why would we want to change the style? Every successful team in world football is playing either possession, passing football or defensive counter attacking, with a high line. There is no one at the top level playing 4-4-2 get it forward early, find the biggest, tallest, quickest blokes you can and hoof it up to em early style. The reason being it plain doesn't work anymore.

I find it amazing how many people still think that is the way forward when all the evidence tells you otherwise...
 




Hungry Joe

SINNEN
Oct 22, 2004
7,636
Heading for shore
Why would we want to change the style? Every successful team in world football is playing either possession, passing football or defensive counter attacking, with a high line. There is no one at the top level playing 4-4-2 get it forward early, find the biggest, tallest, quickest blokes you can and hoof it up to em early style. The reason being it plain doesn't work anymore.

I find it amazing how many people still think that is the way forward when all the evidence tells you otherwise...

Another over-simplification and not what I or anyone else on here is suggesting for a minute. Did Derby do that? Did Palace last season? Did Southampton before them? Read the original post again, there are more than two ways of playing football.
 


Seasidesage

New member
May 19, 2009
4,467
Brighton, United Kingdom
Another over-simplification and not what I or anyone else on here is suggesting for a minute. Did Derby do that? Did Palace last season? Did Southampton before them? Read the original post again, there are more than two ways of playing football.

Who said I was referencing you mate? Derby played possession football, they just did it better than us. Southampton is a good case in point though. Nigel Atkins style and set up, got them so far (just off the relegation spots in the PL) with his get it into Lambert early tactics. Pochettino has reorganised essentially the same squad and got them passing with good movement, into the top ten with scope to go higher if they can keep their better players. They now pass the ball short , play with fluidity and seek to retain possession and are reaping the rewards...
 


Napper

Well-known member
Jul 9, 2003
24,452
Sussex
Why would we want to change the style? Every successful team in world football is playing either possession, passing football or defensive counter attacking, with a high line. There is no one at the top level playing 4-4-2 get it forward early, find the biggest, tallest, quickest blokes you can and hoof it up to em early style. The reason being it plain doesn't work anymore.

I find it amazing how many people still think that is the way forward when all the evidence tells you otherwise...


Everton

I think most top teams dont stick to a formation that strictly. Teams can interchange several formations during a game depending how its going.

Flexibility the key
 




Seasidesage

New member
May 19, 2009
4,467
Brighton, United Kingdom
Everton

I think most top teams dont stick to a formation that strictly. Teams can interchange several formations during a game depending how its going.

Flexibility the key

Do you mean Everton are playing 4-4-2? I can't see that myself, they're playing Lukaku up front with 3 attacking midfielders in behind him surely? Agree about flexibility though. Nothing wrong with playing two upfront if you are chasing the game, just don't think that it would work long term...
 


Daffy Duck

Stop bloody moaning!
Nov 7, 2009
3,824
GOSBTS
Trouble is that it's been so long since any of us have seen 4-4-2 down here that we've forgotten what it looks like or how it works.
 


maltaseagull

Well-known member
Feb 25, 2009
13,361
Zabbar- Malta
Yep, as that 4th(6th) goal went in I thought, that's a blessing..........Seriously though, I agree. Half that side that took the field against Derby were either out of contract, or loan players. I said all along I didn't think we would make the play offs and on that note I was wrong. But I think the performance proved we probably should not have got there. The style of football was negative, dull and boring and that's not just my opinion either, half the pundits on the radio have said as much...We need a new mentality within the football club and at least half a dozen new players in the first team....On a more positive note, I think we will be far better next season and am already looking forward to it.

If only we could get a side and manager together that could play like we did for the first 20 minutes of both the home leg play offs for a whole season! We would stroll into the premier league.
 




goldstone

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 5, 2003
7,177
It certainly was. Highlighted our weaknesses and just how many new players we need to get out of this division.
 


perseus

Broad Blue & White stripe
Jul 5, 2003
23,461
Sūþseaxna
I think we made Derby look good, rather than them being a really good team. I think they have about as much chance of beating QPR as Hull City did of beating Arsenal.

We just had too many reserves on the pitch.
 


sydney

tinky ****in winky
Jul 11, 2003
17,965
town full of eejits
I think we made Derby look good, rather than them being a really good team. I think they have about as much chance of beating QPR as Hull City did of beating Arsenal.

We just had too many reserves on the pitch.

i think they will beat QPR but that aside i think the manner of our defeat by Derby will only serve to confirm that we were lucky to get in the play offs at all and that some serious investment needs to be made in the permanent squad if we are to improve on our recent finishes.
 




Diego Napier

Well-known member
Mar 27, 2010
4,416
Most definitely a blessing in disguise.

You only need to look how Derby, Burnley and Wigan played to see where we were weak. The fast paced counter-attack was something we couldn't produce while these three teams could. Watching the QPR v Wigan game highlighted how many men they could get in the box very quickly - we were lucky if we got one man there.

Yes we could, but not frequently enough. Look how we sliced through Hull's defence for our superb goal at home in the FA Cup. We had a good number of fast sweeping moves during the season, the problem is that they fade in the memory as the player on the end of the final pass was unable to hit the net! We carved Wigan open time and time again at home, some of our football made them look silly but we couldn't deliver the final product.
 


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