[Albion] Was the Derby spanking a blessing in disguise?

[Triggaaar]

Tactics played a part because Ince was a CB so could have dropped back and left Ward on the left.

That could have helped, but I guess Oscar had his reasons. And I'm not taking anything away from Derby, they're a good team, and might have beaten us even if we hadn't been unlucky and had injuries. But they might not have. The bottom line though, is that passing it around has worked. If you've found it boring to watch, then fair enough. But it's been successful.

 

[kevtherev]

I think we should all wait until August to pass judgement on how much money we have to spend. I firmly believe the money is there and I think a few people are going to be quite shocked, when the new players start coming in. With so many players and the type of players who were out of contract at the end of the season, coupled with the wages, I think it's been planned all along not to buy players last season. I don't think it a coincidence that Dale Stephens was the only signing in the last twelve months, who's contract ran further than the end of the season. I think the powers that be have realized for some time that a new direction was needed in order to progress and now we are about to see that happen.

 

[crookie]

No, I completely disagree. We finished top 6 with a new manager that didn't know English football, despite having a huge amount of injuries, and spending within our means. The main reason we got dicked in the second leg was because of a complete make shift team. No Ward running down the left, because he was now a central defender, no Bruno passing down the right, no Stephens in the middle. The reason we lost the first leg was due to bad luck. It's not the style of football that's held us back, it's a combination of injuries, money and luck. We had Hoskins out for 2 seasons, CMS out for most of them, and Crofts out for most of this one, yet we still managed to finish top 6 both times, and with a bit of luck would have got further.

I agree we were unlucky to lose the first leg, but we were fortunate to stumble into 6th place anyway IMO. In the second leg Derby were all over us before injury reshuffle, they looked like the side needing to win. We also played an obviously injured player on the wing with 2 fit wingers on the bench. Had CMS or Hoskins been fit this season where would they have played. Oscar has shown close to zero tactical flexibility to change games when things haven't worked. Whilst I didn't want another managerial disruption this summer I think it may be for the best

 

[Triggaaar]

No of course we didn't finish bottom half, we overachieved when you take into account the circumstances you describe.

If we overachieved, why would we change our style?

But we weren't good enough to go up, and if we had have fluked promotion we would have been destroyed next season unless we'd have broke the bank.

Good enough? We were better than Palace last year, but they went up. And if teams like Swansea can spend a bit and stay up, why can't we? And so what if we'd have come back down, we'd now have millions to invest on getting back up again, stronger.

Derby, even if they don't beat QPR, looked 'Premier ready' in terms of the type of players they had, we looked lightweight and slow in comparison, even when our best players were available.

I agree we're lightweight and slow in comparison. We would have had more pace with a fit Buckley and CMS, but we do need to get some pace in the squad (we did try and buy Grabban). And we are lightweight without Crofts, but with a fully fit squad we only need a bit more strength.

We don't need to rip up the plan, just modify it to take the reality of the league we're in, and what you need to survive in the PL once promoted, into account better.

Having a bit more strength and pace would be great, and would work with the plan we have. Obviously we'd be buying players if we went up, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I agree we were unlucky to lose the first leg, but we were fortunate to stumble into 6th place anyway IMO. In the second leg Derby were all over us before injury reshuffle, they looked like the side needing to win. We also played an obviously injured player on the wing with 2 fit wingers on the bench. Had CMS or Hoskins been fit this season where would they have played. Oscar has shown close to zero tactical flexibility to change games when things haven't worked. Whilst I didn't want another managerial disruption this summer I think it may be for the best

This.

 

[Triggaaar]

I think we should all wait until August to pass judgement on how much money we have to spend. I firmly believe the money is there and I think a few people are going to be quite shocked, when the new players start coming in. With so many players and the type of players who were out of contract at the end of the season, coupled with the wages, I think it's been planned all along not to buy players last season. I don't think it a coincidence that Dale Stephens was the only signing in the last twelve months, who's contract ran further than the end of the season.

I agree with you, but also think it's because we didn't have a manager last summer, and TB doesn't like to do deals in January (because clubs won't let good players go).

I think the powers that be have realized for some time that a new direction was needed in order to progress and now we are about to see that happen.

Not so sure about that though. The club is definitely disappointed Oscar left. Had he stayed, we'd have been making signings this summer that he sanctioned.

The club may be expecting wages to drop a little now that FFP rules are in place, so that could have played a part in their decision to let contracts run out.

 

[KZNSeagull]

I think we should all wait until August to pass judgement on how much money we have to spend. I firmly believe the money is there and I think a few people are going to be quite shocked, when the new players start coming in. With so many players and the type of players who were out of contract at the end of the season, coupled with the wages, I think it's been planned all along not to buy players last season. I don't think it a coincidence that Dale Stephens was the only signing in the last twelve months, who's contract ran further than the end of the season. I think the powers that be have realized for some time that a new direction was needed in order to progress and now we are about to see that happen.

I agree with the funds available etc, but I do not expect any new direction at all. We will still play possession football, but will try to get the players in than will allow us to execute it better and faster and the whole academy is going to be set up that way.

The reason we have a lot of player contracts expiring this year, I suspect, is that most were on big wages and the club is expecting FFP to start to have a lowering effect on wages at our level. We may be able to sign the equivalent or better players on lower wages. We will see what happens.

 

[Hungry Joe]

If we overachieved, why would we change our style?

Good enough? We were better than Palace last year, but they went up. And if teams like Swansea can spend a bit and stay up, why can't we? And so what if we'd have come back down, we'd now have millions to invest on getting back up again, stronger.

I agree we're lightweight and slow in comparison. We would have had more pace with a fit Buckley and CMS, but we do need to get some pace in the squad (we did try and buy Grabban). And we are lightweight without Crofts, but with a fully fit squad we only need a bit more strength.

Having a bit more strength and pace would be great, and would work with the plan we have. Obviously we'd be buying players if we went up, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Some reasonable points, but don't pin your hopes on Buckley ever being fit!

 

[pasty]

Some good points made. Whilst I gave Oscar a chance largely due to our crippling injury crisis, by late February I'd had enough.

I honestly believe we went backwards this season, the standard of play, was at times, desperate in my eyes. With the exception of Leicester, Blackburn, Charlton and perhaps QPR, the performances in home games was poor in the main.

You can of course argue about player recruitment, bad summer etc...., but the bottom line is to only have one player in the box when we are attacking is unforgiveable, especially at home.

Even earlier in the year versus Forest at home, they went down to 10 men and we went narrower, as he pushed Kaz inside.

That said, we finished 6th, so something must've gone well (clearly the defence). But doesn't say much about the teams around us.

So is it a blessing in disguise? Probably, though I really believe we should leap at any opportunity to go up and worry about it afterwards, when you consider Cardiff's payment for finishing bottom, it really does potentially make the Championship a two tier league.

Can't disagree with any of that. Top post.

 

[Triggaaar]

don't pin your hopes on Buckley ever being fit!

I'm not. If he ever gets over his injuries, he's going to be a great player. If he doesn't, then it's not our system that's broken, it's Buckley.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I think it was a sobering reminder of there's still a lot more work to be done.

 

[origigull]

Pace we all agree on - Gus and Oscar wanted pace too, but the few players we've had with pace have suffered with injuries.

Correct 8/10 times pace and power and a bit of luck = goals and goals win games. We were lacking in pace and power most of the season due to injuries and we just didn`t get enough bodies in the oppposition box to cause damage. Our build up was slow which gave the opposition plenty of time to defend. All teams need pace and power (or quick counte-attacks) to unnerve the opposition, keep them thinking, keep more defenders/midfielders back in their own half.

 

[Brovion]

I'd say yes, it was a blessing in disguise. It brought into sharp focus the difference between talking about having a passion for attacking play and actually demonstrating it on the pitch. The Albion talked the talk, Derby walked the walk. There was a vast gulf between the team that finished sixth in the division and the team that finished third. They ripped us to shreds basically. It confirmed that on the playing side we are currently nowhere near Premier League Ready. No disgrace in that, we did very well to nick a play-off place. Looking forward to the re-build already!

Agreed. Like HJ (and I guess a lot of others) I want Derby to win and I want them to do well next year. If they struggle it will mean the gap between our current situation and being 'PLR' is even bigger than we think!

 

[Kevlar]

I think both Gus and Oscar did excellently to make the play offs
Both managers success was based on excellent defence.
Gus did have the advantage of having a fit Orlandi and Buckley more often
Simply do not think Kaz or the Spanish Dave's are as good
Hope Solly will become as good but he is not there yet
Oscar certainly got more out of Crofts than Gus did.
IF the god of football could guarantee the team a play off place
at the expense of a chance of automatic promotion I would gratefully except
It is a tremendously competitive league even with parachute payments
relegated teams struggle to win promotion ( may be FFP will change that)

 

[Sergei's Celebration]

We are not going to change our style of football in any drastic way. At all. Not for a long time. People need to start realising that it is the club philosophy not a managers, the manager who comes in will fit that philosophy.

It emanates at all levels of the club, youth, academy, DS and first team to have a major change to the style and philosophy would mean wholesale change at all levels. It just aint gonna happen.

 

[*Gullsworth*]

I'd say yes, it was a blessing in disguise. It brought into sharp focus the difference between talking about having a passion for attacking play and actually demonstrating it on the pitch. The Albion talked the talk, Derby walked the walk. There was a vast gulf between the team that finished sixth in the division and the team that finished third. They ripped us to shreds basically. It confirmed that on the playing side we are currently nowhere near Premier League Ready. No disgrace in that, we did very well to nick a play-off place. Looking forward to the re-build already!

This this and this....you know if we played Palace with the team that played Derby we would have been humiliated again because although we play attractive football we have not got the killer punch....a bit like a skillfull flyweight taking on Mike Tyson......you keep tapping away and it does no harm then wham Tyson takes you out with an almighty blow. Like it or not our style of play has a very soft underbelly and better teams can soak it up all day until the opportunity arises to attack at speed and strength and we are stuffed every time. It works against lesser teams and against Palace last season, but this season Pullis has given them Balls and we are nowhere near them at the moment! We need to grow some!

 

[withdeanwombat]

The one thing about the play offs I do not like is the fact that a team can finish third in the Championship well ahead of fourth and still not go up. Yes, I know the rules are there from the start, but don't all those pundits bang on about the table not being a liar ? Now, I won't often say this, but the system north of the border where the team finishing next to relegation plays the team next to promotion for that final "spot"in the higher league seems fairer; or not bother with play offs at all (cue "the season tapers off into total boredom", "Sky loses some matches", "you stupid old git" comments.)

The other thing I don't like about the play offs is losing in the buggers.

(Heh,heh.)

 

[kevtherev]

I agree with you, but also think it's because we didn't have a manager last summer, and TB doesn't like to do deals in January (because clubs won't let good players go).
Not so sure about that though. The club is definitely disappointed Oscar left. Had he stayed, we'd have been making signings this summer that he sanctioned.

The club may be expecting wages to drop a little now that FFP rules are in place, so that could have played a part in their decision to let contracts run out.

I don't agree. Sure they would want people to believe they are disappointed he left. But i'm not so convinced, I think the writing was on the wall very early, even back in October-November. His whole personality, coupled with the style of play. I just think the club thought they would sit tight and hope for the best, knowing full well the end of the season would see mass departures in the playing staff. Then they could take a whole new direction. They certainly didn't appear to be falling over themselves to help Oscar out in the transfer market did they Unlike Poyet, who they backed hand over fist and who still wanted more....For what it's worth I feel sorry for Oscar, he seemed like a really nice guy, maybe to nice. But I'm not sorry he has gone, as last season was probably the dullest I have ever witnessed.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Tactics played a part because Ince was a CB so could have dropped back and left Ward on the left.

When has Ince played as a centre half at Championship level?

It was less of a risk to move Ward into that position and tactically the right choice to make at the time, had we won, would anyone question why Ince didn't drop back when Greer went off (and yet another damaging injury for our set up / tactics which was the running theme of the season)

 

[Stat Brother]

I think it was a blessing but not for the reasons stated.

Dunk, Ince & March can all cement a first team place, while Chicksen & JFC can force themselves close to the starting 11.
Dalison, and the young GK get to move up the ladder.

Even if only 3 of the 5 'make it', that's probably 2 more than would have happened in the Premier League (choose between Ince and Dunk as to the stand out candidate).

If a team with 3, 4, or even 5 youth teamers can make an impact next season we'll be set fair player wise and, probably more importantly, financially.

None of that would have happened fighting relegation up a division.