War in Middle East - part XXVVVII

[clippedgull]

Ok lets say France invades Britain. The UN then passes a resolution condeming indeed showing the invasion is illegal. France ignores this and so freedom fighters ( or terrorists as France labels them ) start a campaign to remove France from Britain. Unfortuantely they only have lower powered rockets and bombs to fight a heavily equiped and well trained French force.

Would you be supporting the British ( and possibly fighting with them assuming you're British ) or comdeming the freedom fighters as terrorists

I was of the understanding that Hamas started this by firing rockets into Israel If that is the case your scenario is back to front!

edit: on re-reading you may be referring to the history of the conflict, in which I know little.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

edit: on re-reading you may be referring to the history of the conflict, in which I know little.

Correct. Although Israel seems very keen never to mention is occupies lands illegally and has even driven Palestinians from their homes so it's own people can build new settlements. In my scenerio, imagine you've been driven from your home by the French ( all your livestock slaughtered and olive trees destroyed because you're a farmer ) - wouldn't YOU use ANY means to fight back ? This is what happened to 1000's of Palenstinians and now they are using the only weapons they have to fight back.

The US will NEVER condem Isreal as the Jews in the states are VERY powerful. The UK should be ashamed is had constantly backed Israel.

 

[The Spanish]

Correct. Although Israel seems very keen never to mention is occupies lands illegally and has even driven Palestinians from their homes so it's own people can build new settlements. In my scenerio, imagine you've been driven from your home by the French ( all your livestock slaughtered and olive trees destroyed because you're a farmer ) - wouldn't YOU use ANY means to fight back ? This is what happened to 1000's of Palenstinians and now they are using the only weapons they have to fight back.

The US will NEVER condem Isreal as the Jews in the states are VERY powerful. The UK should be ashamed is had constantly backed Israel.

Not only backed it but assisted in creating it while the Israelis were torturing and lynching British troops who a few years earlier had fought their way across a Europe dominated by their tormentors. f*** them. God will sort them out if they are so special, both sides. They are just a useful buffer zone for Europe.

 

[NMH]

Unfortunately as long as the Arabs continue to believe that diplomacy is a sign of weakness, Israel will continue to demonstrate it's overwhelming military supremacy and willingness to crush any opposition ruthlessly. Let's face it Israel could take on the entire Arab world, plus Iran and still wipe them off the face of the earth simply because they wouldn't pull any punches and have the attitude of "to hell with the consequences" because of the Zionist influence in the Pentagon & White House.

Well, unfortunately mate, when there IS diplomacy - Israel IS weak. THAT is the time when the onus is on Israel to actually tangibly DO something! Instead, they revel in the peaceful periods by building new houses in areas originally deemed as not for building (as Westdene Seagull mentions 2 posts above), and they increase their numbers while Palestinians are supposed to sit like good in-mates of what is a virtual 'Guantanamo Bay'.

All well and nice for Israel to cultivate public sympathy while the bombs are going in - but they are RUBBISH when a peace accord is on the table, reminding everyone that "the Hamas only want them annihilated".

They basically tell the Hamas that a peace accord suits them, "just fine thankyou - but you are staying in poverty and confinement all the same".

 

[Meade's Ball]

I went on the march yesterday in London town as my little way of saying i disapprove of the Israeli government's election-battling manouvres to win favour from a public who were known to be voting them out in a matter of months, and the calous heartlessness of such an onslaught. It was quite an emotional walk. I am not one to shout things out in public or sing songs outside of Brighton away games, and neither did i do these things yesterday, but i felt the passion and fervour of the occasion. All these marches are full of little groups looking for their membership to rise and their strongly-held opinions being given greater backing, but there were some quite moving sections of the crowd yesterday too. The odd sign saying I AM JEWISH BUT DESPISE THIS UNJUST HOLOCAUST seemed quite powerful alongside the many ISRAEL ARE TERROISTS and FREE PALESTINE chants.
For me, Israel can't remove themselves from the conflict as that would insinuate they perhaps shouldn't have gone in so heavily to start with, and with an election approaching that would be a sign of weakness no politicians want to be wearing. So they will keep blowing up mosques they claim to be hiding-places for ammunition and happily receive verbal support from the right-wing imbecilia of the US of how "they" didn't start it and are just looking to clean up the middle east and make it as democratically correct as possible. There are dreams of the stance Obama will take when he comes to power in a couple of weeks, but that's a false hope, i would say. Too much to risk politically and financially to vocalise sympathy and outwardly oppose an act of extreme violence sold as self-defence.
I just wish Gordy Brown would stand up for something for the first time.

 

[looney]

Ok lets say France invades Britain. The UN then passes a resolution condeming indeed showing the invasion is illegal. France ignores this and so freedom fighters ( or terrorists as France labels them ) start a campaign to remove France from Britain. Unfortuantely they only have lower powered rockets and bombs to fight a heavily equiped and well trained French force.

Would you be supporting the British ( and possibly fighting with them assuming you're British ) or comdeming the freedom fighters as terrorists

False comparison. there are many arabs who live in Israel who have the vote etc.

The Palistinians are not in favour of a 2 state solution, thats why they elected Hamas.They already have autominous regions.


A more accurate comparison would be wanting to destroy france and the french as well. Or Bradford declaring itself an islamic republic.

 

[Questions]

Was Menahim Begin a freedom fighter when he massacred woman and children in the Irgun attack on innocent woman and children at Deir Yassin or at The King David Hotel, where British people died. The Israelis have always been a murdering race and that can be charted back 2000 years when they were no more that a nomadic tribe who would rape and pillage their way across the middle east or to Moses`s ''Promised land'' as the Old Testament might have you believe.
They survive as the heinous state they are because of our sympathies to the Jewish people because of the Nazi atricities during WW2.

 

[jakarta]

The Israelis have always been a murdering race.

So Hitler was right all along eh?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

False comparison. there are many arabs who live in Israel who have the vote etc.

The Palistinians are not in favour of a 2 state solution, thats why they elected Hamas.They already have autominous regions.


A more accurate comparison would be wanting to destroy france and the french as well. Or Bradford declaring itself an islamic republic.

Good dodge of the illegal occupation by Israel. Quite correctly the Palistinians want an independant state NOT an autominous region. Arabs live in Israel because their land was invaded by Israel ( or carved out by the Allies after the war depending which part you consider ). If France had invaded my homeland and slaughtered my people I'd be wanting to wipe it off the face of the planet.

It's noticable that Israel has imposed a ban on journalists in the Gaza strip - very Nazi like. But then they've been playing on the worlds sympathies since the war while acting as badly, if not worse, than the Nazis.

 

[Buzzer]

You do realise we'll be debating this in 100 years time?

The ONLY way that peace can be achieved is more jaw and less war. Ain't gonna happen though. I've always thought Bush's great failure as president was his response to 9/11. He could have pulled Iran, Syria, Iraq to the peace table if only he had made a humanitarian and peaceful response to the attacks. Instead he's made things worse.

Israel would have had to bow to American demands and concessions for the Palestinian diaspora.

I truly believe that he would have gone down as a great (if not the greatest) US president if he had secured peace in the Middle East by taking the moral high ground. Imagine the way that Al-Qaeda would have been isolated if he had gone to the UN and said "no more deaths, no more bombings, no more tit for tat reprisals."


You lot do realise that El Pres was not being entirely literal in his post, don't you?

 

[brighton bluenose]

False comparison. there are many arabs who live in Israel who have the vote etc.

The Palistinians are not in favour of a 2 state solution, thats why they elected Hamas.They already have autominous regions.
.

The fact is that many Palestinians were in favour of a two-state solution but the continued Israeli murder and oppression of the Palestinian people, stealing of their lands by the bulding of the peace wall and illegal settlements etc etc etc has forced many to vote for Hamas.

Those autonimous(sic) regions you refer to are virtual prison camps into which the Israelis control virtually everything and everyone who goes in or out!

I suggest you start reading a decent newspaper mate and stop relying on the 6'O clock news!!

 

[looney]

Its not a dodge its ignoring an irrelevant point. define illeagal occupation then tell me how it applies to a war in progress?

Israelis have banned journalists? Good thats how wars are supposed to be fought, by controlling information.

Oh and dont throw ridiculous straw man arguments at me about a Palastinian nation. almost everyone agrees with that, its those that wont accept an israeli state who are the problem.

 

[jakarta]

You do realise we'll be debating this in 100 years time?

Seeing as Israel is a nuclear power and Iran aspires to being one very shortly I dont think we will......

Happy New Year!

 

[brighton bluenose]

Its not a dodge its ignoring an irrelevant point. define illeagal occupation then tell me how it applies to a war in progress?

Israelis have banned journalists? Good thats how wars are supposed to be fought, by controlling information.

Oh and dont throw ridiculous straw man arguments at me about a Palastinian nation. almost everyone agrees with that, its those that wont accept an israeli state who are the problem.

Unbelievable!

'Almost everyone agrees' with a Palestinian state except the fvcking Israeli government - THAT has been the problem for the last 60 years!!!!!

 

[Les Biehn]

Until there is at least some semblance of a two state solution then nothing will change. However I just can't see this happening, firstly because how the hell do you divide up Jerusalem? The only way to do it is for both to share the land but I can't see that happening.

 

[Questions]

So Hitler was right all along eh?

No he wasn`t Mr Jakarta.

 

[chip]

Good dodge of the illegal occupation by Israel. Quite correctly the Palistinians want an independant state NOT an autominous region. Arabs live in Israel because their land was invaded by Israel ( or carved out by the Allies after the war depending which part you consider ).

Interestingly the notion of Palestinian didn't really exist until around the 1920s. Most moslem-arabs wouldn't have regonised this at the time as the designation Plaestine was used to signify the a national home of the Jewish people rather than the Israel/Jordan it encompasses today - Jews come from Judea. So Palestine and the Palestinian people are somewhat a modern day myth which has been shamelessley marketed by arabs. In fact most residents of what we now call Palestine are of very recent origin having migrated there in order to improve their economic status from places such as Egypt, Yemen, etc. The Jews have a far greater claim to have been kicked out of their homeland.

Israel has been under almost constant rocket attack from the neighbouring arab adminstered areas throughout the ceasefire. Hamas threatened Israel with reprisals if they attempted to stop the rocket attacks and suicide bombers. Israel one 660th the size of its arab neighbours has responded in the only way it can to protect its citizens, arab or Jewish, exactly as Hamas wanted. Hamas want the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews therin, not a good position for negotiations. None of the (reasonable) neighbouring countries wanted Hamas rule as it was obvious the troubles would esculate - look what has happened to the old parties in Gaza. Until Hamas are replaced with a more receptive governing body their is no chance of moving resolution closer.

 

[Questions]

Interestingly the notion of Palestinian didn't really exist until around the 1920s. Most moslem-arabs wouldn't have regonised this at the time as the designation Plaestine was used to signify the a national home of the Jewish people rather than the Israel/Jordan it encompasses today - Jews come from Judea. So Palestine and the Palestinian people are somewhat a modern day myth which has been shamelessley marketed by arabs. In fact most residents of what we now call Palestine are of very recent origin having migrated there in order to improve their economic status from places such as Egypt, Yemen, etc. The Jews have a far greater claim to have been kicked out of their homeland.

Israel has been under almost constant rocket attack from the neighbouring arab adminstered areas throughout the ceasefire. Hamas threatened Israel with reprisals if they attempted to stop the rocket attacks and suicide bombers. Israel one 660th the size of its arab neighbours has responded in the only way it can to protect its citizens, arab or Jewish, exactly as Hamas wanted. Hamas want the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews therin, not a good position for negotiations. None of the (reasonable) neighbouring countries wanted Hamas rule as it was obvious the troubles would esculate - look what has happened to the old parties in Gaza. Until Hamas are replaced with a more receptive governing body their is no chance of moving resolution closer.

The troubles were there before Hamas. Try again.

 

[Questions]

False comparison. there are many arabs who live in Israel who have the vote etc.

The Palistinians are not in favour of a 2 state solution, thats why they elected Hamas.They already have autominous regions.


A more accurate comparison would be wanting to destroy france and the french as well. Or Bradford declaring itself an islamic republic.

Oh dear Oh dear.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

So Hitler was right all along eh?

of course , the jews never want to inter grate , they were given the land and formed the state of israel and then went about persecuting the palestinians