[Politics] Votes for 16 year olds

[Wardy's twin]

I really don’t get where this “life experience” argument comes from. What “life experience” do 80 year olds have that 16 year olds don’t, exactly?

Because as I see it, many 80 year olds have very little experience of the world as it looks right now (my grandmother, bless her, got her entire world view from the Daily Mail and retired in the late 1980s, despite this voting in 9 elections after that point) so the “experience” relates to a world which, put simply, no longer exists.

Ask most 80 year olds what AI is and the issues around it and most (not all, I really don’t care about any exceptions people wish to list as a response) of them wouldn’t have a clue. But I bet a huge number of 16 year olds could.

they would probably say Artificial Insemination

 

[fly high]

How many pensioners pay tax?

Every time a teenager buys clothes or trainers, buys a cinema ticket, a bottle of pop or goes to a football match, they pay tax.

So pensioners never buy clothes, don't go to the cinema or football matches? Also they never go to the pub, smoke, buy alcohol anywhere or eat out.

All pensioners who have even small works/private pension will pay tax. Those with good pensions will pay more.

All pensioners who run thier own home/car pay taxes on insurances and services. Electric and gas bills attract tax. How many 16 year old do this?

The majority of 16 year olds in employment will probably be in an apprenticeship working 4 days a week with 1 day at college. The latest ONS figures show 90% of 16 to 18 year olds are in full time education or an apprenticeship. Those in an apprenticeship will most likely be on the minimum wage. Unless they have an evening job they will be earning below the tax threshold so no income tax.

There are nearly 1.5 million pensioners in employment who will be paying income tax.

If people want to argue the competency of 16 year olds to vote then do just that, don't think tax should come into it.

Not arguing for or against but if 16/17 year olds are deemed mature enough to vote then they are mature enough to buy cigarettes and alcohol. They should be allowed to drive and all other age related restrictions should also be lowered.

A new law has raised the age at which you can legally marry to 18, aimed at protecting children from arranged/forced marriage.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

How is it that 16-17 year olds can be trusted to vote in elections but not have a pint down their local?

No idea. But getting back to the original point, are you in favour of 16 year olds voting or not?

 

[heathgate]

How many pensioners pay tax?

Every time a teenager buys clothes or trainers, buys a cinema ticket, a bottle of pop or goes to a football match, they pay tax.

Stop being dull... every pensioner pays tax if their pension is more than the standard income threshold, just like normal tax payers,.... do, effectively paying tax on a pool of money they have already paid tax on whilst building said pot of money during their working lives..... next.

.....and pensioners do pay tax as per normal folk for all expenditure, rent, council tax, car, vat....

 

[BadFish]

I suspect you would argue “for a more levelled distribution of wealth” on a thread about the offensive merits of the 4-3-3 formation.

If people want to pay more tax in the UK then HMRC can facilitate that situation and I doff my cap to those that voluntarily do so, including smokers.

That isn’t your argument though, because the issue really at hand is that you want those people earning more than you to pay more tax than you.

The sort of petty adolescent argument most people grow out of by the time their brain has fully developed by 25yo (according to the U.K. Govt research).

I didn't realise I was making or having an argument. My intention was to express my surprise at the high figure of net positive tax contribution and perhaps find out a little more about the amount of people that fall into or above that bracket.

Still a personal attack, totally misrepresenting my thoughts and opinons is not terribly surprising so I guess we can leave it there.

For what it is worth I was more suggesting that a system where more people are paid above the net contribution line may be more beneficial for tax income and having less people needing tax monies to supplement their income.

I suggest a camomile tea and a nice lay down.

Thanks for the original info, that was very interesting.

 

[beorhthelm]

No idea. But getting back to the original point, are you in favour of 16 year olds voting or not?

it is the point though. the argument in favour of 16yo voting hasn't considered 18 is age for becoming an adult and full rights and responsibilities that go with that. it's very odd saying it's OK to vote while still required to be in education or training, not able to be on a jury, etc., or is that changing too?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

it is the point though. the argument in favour of 16yo voting hasn't considered 18 is age for becoming an adult and full rights and responsibilities that go with that. it's very odd saying it's OK to vote while still required to be in education or training, not able to be on a jury, etc., or is that changing too?

I have no idea if that’s changing as well, but as it’s a different issue, if you feel strongly about it lobby for it? 16 seems a sensible age to start voting in my mind. Do I want 16 year olds to drink, bet, watch porn…..not too bothered either way and don’t feel strongly about it. Not everything needs to be age aligned.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Stop being dull... every pensioner pays tax if their pension is more than the standard income threshold, just like normal tax payers,.... do, effectively paying tax on a pool of money they have already paid tax on whilst building said pot of money during their working lives..... next.

.....and pensioners do pay tax as per normal folk for all expenditure, rent, council tax, car, vat....

Thank you for proving my point, dull or otherwise.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

There are plenty of people who go through their lives not giving a care to politics, being politically naive and still voting, perhaps voting for the candidate with the nicest hair.

there are plenty of 16 to 18 year olds who are very engaged. Mrs DiS had a lifetime in sixth form education and would confirm that…….. and it is their future we are deciding.

give them the vote.

I agree. I worked part time in youth clubs for over 20 years.

 

[cunning fergus]

I have no idea if that’s changing as well, but as it’s a different issue, if you feel strongly about it lobby for it? 16 seems a sensible age to start voting in my mind. Do I want 16 year olds to drink, bet, watch porn…..not too bothered either way and don’t feel strongly about it. Not everything needs to be age aligned.

Drivel, the truth is you can’t make case for it. Age based limits are important where it matters, so unless voting in elections doesn’t matter as much as (say) watching porn then you should make a compelling case for reducing the age limits on airline pilots, train drivers, teachers, councillors and dare I say it MPs.

If the 16-17 yo cohort can vote because politicians think they are mature enough, then it follows that those age limits can be reduced in those occupations. We all know they won’t, and why drinking smoking and gambling limits won’t be reduced either.

It’s a pup, no pun intended.

 

[cunning fergus]

I was drinking from the age of 11, wine at the table growing up as many kids on the Continent do - in a safe family meal environment- then I was down the pub routinely at the age of 17 - so have no strong feelings about drinking age - However society/Governments recognise that there are some things that are more detrimental to the health and emotional well being in younger people than in adults - we have a society that still engenders a protective ethos towards children and young people and for good reason. The health risks are much higher from smoking on lungs and alcohol on brains that are still physically developing. As far as gambling, young people are far more likely to fall victim to addictions because emotionally, they are more vulnerable and less aware of the carrots and honey pots that the gambling industry use to entrap people into addictive behaviour.

None of that is an argument against allowing 16-18 years olds the right to vote. Voting isn’t addictive, it’s not going to physically damage young lungs and brains nor is it going to give them a distorted impression of what healthy sexual relationships are about before they have even had a chance to have experiences of real relationships built on friendship and trust.

I think the fact that the school leaving age has effectively been raised to 18 - means 16-18 year olds are now working, in apprenticeships or in further education - That framework would seem adequate for them to have mature discussions either in the workplace or at 6th form college/tech about political realities and the options open to them in a polling booth.

Let them be MPs, drive trains and fly airlines.

If they can do that they can smoke while they are at it, their body their choice to use a moniker from a different issue.

Unless you are one of those US pro life loons.

 

[cunning fergus]

I didn't realise I was making or having an argument. My intention was to express my surprise at the high figure of net positive tax contribution and perhaps find out a little more about the amount of people that fall into or above that bracket.

Still a personal attack, totally misrepresenting my thoughts and opinons is not terribly surprising so I guess we can leave it there.

For what it is worth I was more suggesting that a system where more people are paid above the net contribution line may be more beneficial for tax income and having less people needing tax monies to supplement their income.

I suggest a camomile tea and a nice lay down.

Thanks for the original info, that was very interesting.

Calm down Mildred, the glue that binds this message board together are personal attacks, as long as they are not to spicy eh?

You can’t check out who pays the most tax in UK by a simple google search, Denise Coates and Fred Done are up in the top rank, generating huge personal fortunes from gambling.

I’m sure they would be happy for age reductions in their industry, the law in the UK has changed recently whereby Parliament implanted laws to protect the u25s.

Quite why given some of the same Parliamentarians consider 16-17yo can vote………..democracy must be very straightforward compared to backing a horse in the grand national.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Drivel, the truth is you can’t make case for it. Age based limits are important where it matters, so unless voting in elections doesn’t matter as much as (say) watching porn then you should make a compelling case for reducing the age limits on airline pilots, train drivers, teachers, councillors and dare I say it MPs.

If the 16-17 yo cohort can vote because politicians think they are mature enough, then it follows that those age limits can be reduced in those occupations. We all know they won’t, and why drinking smoking and gambling limits won’t be reduced either.

It’s a pup, no pun intended.

If you feel so strongly that you want to reduce the age limit for these occupations, which you cleary do as you have mentioned it more times than you did your frenzy over carrying a passport in France (and porn for that matter), then go and campaign for it, knock yourself out, fill your boots. I do not have an opinion on this and do not seem a need to conflate the two. Different courses, different horses.

As for the GE....I personally would introduce a test, or a level of education, that voters need to be able to vote. In the absense of this I'll allow 16+.

 

[chickens]

I’m pro in general, those who are politically motivated will vote, those who aren’t bovvered, won’t bovver.

 

[BadFish]

Calm down Mildred, the glue that binds this message board together are personal attacks, as long as they are not to spicy eh?

You can’t check out who pays the most tax in UK by a simple google search, Denise Coates and Fred Done are up in the top rank, generating huge personal fortunes from gambling.

I’m sure they would be happy for age reductions in their industry, the law in the UK has changed recently whereby Parliament implanted laws to protect the u25s.

Quite why given some of the same Parliamentarians consider 16-17yo can vote………..democracy must be very straightforward compared to backing a horse in the grand national.

Well I have read this twice and can only conclude that your user name is ironic.

But let's go back to your last coherant thought in your previous post to me, your misrepresentation of my point here:

"That isn’t your argument though, because the issue really at hand is that you want those people earning more than you to pay more tax than you.

The sort of petty adolescent argument most people grow out of by the time their brain has fully developed by 25yo (according to the U.K. Govt research)."

You say my argument was that I want people who earn more money than me to pay more tax. You add that this is an adolescent argument that most people grow out of.

In fact this is exactly how the tax system works, people who earn more than me Do pay more tax, just as the people I earn more than pay less than me.

Are you and the other fully developed 25yo+ people advocating a different tax system?

I note with interest that you didn't link to the UK gov research, I suspect this might be for the best.

 

[Bodian]

Stop being dull... every pensioner pays tax if their pension is more than the standard income threshold, just like normal tax payers,.... do, effectively paying tax on a pool of money they have already paid tax on whilst building said pot of money during their working lives..... next.

.....and pensioners do pay tax as per normal folk for all expenditure, rent, council tax, car, vat....

Careful now... you were responding to @Thunder Bolt; a pensioner. And she's possibly also 'normal' as well, the two aren't mutually exclusive!

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Careful now... you were responding to @Thunder Bolt; a pensioner. And she's possibly also 'normal' as well, the two aren't mutually exclusive!

It has been rumoured, I am normal now and again.

 

[Peacehaven Wild Kids]

My son has chosen to do Politics as an A level, he’s also brought me up to date with the ANC situation in South Africa. I’d certainly trust his judgment at the ballot box, he’s certainly more open minded than I am regarding the election and I’m allowed the vote

 

[Giraffe]

My son has chosen to do Politics as an A level, he’s also brought me up to date with the ANC situation in South Africa. I’d certainly trust his judgment at the ballot box, he’s certainly more open minded than I am regarding the election and I’m allowed the vote

He will be very much in the minority of 16/17 year olds I suspect.

 

[Zeberdi]

My son has chosen to do Politics as an A level, he’s also brought me up to date with the ANC situation in South Africa. I’d certainly trust his judgment at the ballot box, he’s certainly more open minded than I am regarding the election and I’m allowed the vote

It’s a good course syllabus - my A level Politics got me an interview at Oxford to study Law because it engendered an ability for healthy and balanced debate, open mindedness and informed opinions - all good qualities to any prospective University student and certainly for 16-18 year olds to require.