Vote Tory for a..umm...err..we sort of might have a sort of referendum on Europe.

[Kumquat]

you are not too far wrong
but they have to have done national service to keep the gun at home as required

how did the referendums pan out?

Apparently the first one in 1989 was reasonably close, but the second was just after 9/11 and 77% voted against scrappin it.

 

[pastafarian]

Apparently the first one in 1989 was reasonably close, but the second was just after 9/11 and 77% voted against scrappin it.

cheers
i am not surprised

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

The naivety of the UK electorate is astounding.

The Tories have no intention of having a referendum because the majority of the party still feel they are better in than out... especially with the uncertain politcal climate. All of this is just bargaining chips to dilute UKip and try and get concessions from the EU.

There isnt a sane politcal party in this country that will try and leave the EU and they wont have a referendum because they know that the scandal-happy media have been phenomenal in telling the electorate why the EU is bad but totally silent on why it is good... of course good news is not news.

There is an insane one though... one that believes its own fantasies.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

The current UK position has been partly created by UK politicians agreeing to matters in Brussels and then deceiving the UK electorate about the implications for them. How often we're we told that the EU was not about a "united states of Europe" or that The Lisbon Treaty was just a "tiding up exercise".

The one single thing that politicians should do is represent the interests of their electorate, and on Europe they have singularly failed to do this. Instead they have acted in the interests of big business and they have acted in the interests of the free market Thatcherite capitalists.

Frankly this promise is more of the same, all sizzle and no sausage.

As for the UK being alone I disagree, both the French and Dutch electorates rejected the Lisbon Treaty and other electorates have rejected the EU pro choice in votes. Voters are unhappy with the EU in Spain and Greece and in Germany and Holland for completely different reasons.

They can see the Emperor's new clothes and like many in the UK they don't like the look of them either.

All it takes is proper renegotiation. For me that means being in control of our borders, because I am sick of what has happened in this country as regards mass immigration. We have been taken for a ride on this issue. These stupid open door policies of free movement have failed miserably. It was meant to encourage two way traffic, but all the traffic has been one way to richer countries in the EU.

 

[pastafarian]

The naivety of the UK electorate is astounding.

The Tories have no intention of having a referendum because the majority of the party still feel they are better in than out... especially with the uncertain politcal climate. All of this is just bargaining chips to dilute UKip and try and get concessions from the EU.

There isnt a sane politcal party in this country that will try and leave the EU and they wont have a referendum because they know that the scandal-happy media have been phenomenal in telling the electorate why the EU is bad but totally silent on why it is good... of course good news is not news.

There is an insane one though... one that believes its own fantasies.

i do not doubt what you are saying at all
we must all be very suspicious of what the electorate is promised

cameron is just about to make his speech now........

this could either be more political bollocks or a groundbreaking moment

 

[Tory Boy]

What a fudge Dave. 2015 and we get a renegotiation refererendum and then perhaps an in out vote.

So you don't want a vote?

If the options put before you after the next election don't meet your requirements then vote no, if they do then vote yes.

What's the problem?

TB

 

[Kumquat]

i do not doubt what you are saying at all
we must all be very suspicious of what the electorate is promised

cameron is just about to make his speech now........

this could either be more political bollocks or a groundbreaking moment

I think SCS has called this absolutely right. Cameron is in an awful position. He knows he can't commit to a referendum now because there's a risk that the people would vote to leave but he can't ignore UKIP
and his own right wing. He needs something that will sound firm on Europe without risking outright departure.

 

[Waynflete]

i love the Swiss,they are historically isolationist,(with very good reason)
most people wrongly think they are separate from the EU.but they have been fully signed up members of the free EU trade agreement for 20 years or so(i think,i may be a few years out)they have been fully capable of keeping their national identity,controlling and growing their own economy without compromising their own laws and regulations,while at the same time reaping all the rewards
from being members of a free trade club

if it works for them no doubt its very possible it could work for the UK

The Swiss have dozens of separate individual free trade agreements to make this work. It would take decades for the UK to negotiate similar arrangements.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

i love the Swiss,they are historically isolationist,(with very good reason)
most people wrongly think they are separate from the EU.but they have been fully signed up members of the free EU trade agreement for 20 years or so(i think,i may be a few years out)they have been fully capable of keeping their national identity,controlling and growing their own economy without compromising their own laws and regulations,while at the same time reaping all the rewards
from being members of a free trade club

if it works for them no doubt its very possible it could work for the UK

You make fair points but the UK also wants to be on the big stage shaping and influencing the way the world is going. They, like the countries I mentioned, will not be able to do this from the margins.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

you are not too far wrong
but they have to have done national service to keep the gun at home as required

how did the referendums pan out?

probably hung

 

[pastafarian]

The Swiss have dozens of separate individual free trade agreements to make this work. It would take decades for the UK to negotiate similar arrangements.

sorry you are wrong,where there is a will there is a way,especially where money is concerned.
trade agreements can be reached within months if not weeks.

saying decades is just silly unless you think a decade means a week

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I think SCS has called this absolutely right. Cameron is in an awful position. He knows he can't commit to a referendum now because there's a risk that the people would vote to leave but he can't ignore UKIP
and his own right wing. He needs something that will sound firm on Europe without risking outright departure.

It is also hilarious that once again Europe is dividing the Tory party.

As an aside Cameron has boxed himself into a well stupid position. If he calls the veto in the current EU negotiations then the vote breaks down to a simple majority which he will loose. If he does not use the veto he does not get what he wants. He is also in a awful position with his own country and the UK business leaders. He's not very savvy is he?

 

[Dave the OAP]

It all went wrong when the common market, which people voted for, became the economic and political union, which people did not vote for.

Personally, we should be in, especially as it affects my job 100%

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The Swiss have dozens of separate individual free trade agreements to make this work. It would take decades for the UK to negotiate similar arrangements.

True. And the reason a lot of these work is because of the Swiss' almost total nutrality. The UK does not have this. And why would anyone leave a trusted historic safe trading partner which has been built up over decades of trade for the bankrupt UK?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Personally, we should be in, especially as it affects my job 100%

50% of my current contract is paid for by the EU as well

 

[Kumquat]

It is also hilarious that once again Europe is dividing the Tory party.

As an aside Cameron has boxed himself into a well stupid position. If he calls the veto in the current EU negotiations then the vote breaks down to a simple majority which he will loose. If he does not use the veto he does not get what he wants. He is also in a awful position with his own country and the UK business leaders. He's not very savvy is he?

That's true, although the rise of UKIP and the coalition balance has made it harder for him, he certainly looks very naive in how he's dealt with it.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

That's true, although the rise of UKIP and the coalition balance has made it harder for him, he certainly looks very naive in how he's dealt with it.

He's being led, he's not leading.

 

[Boroseagull]

i love the Swiss,they are historically isolationist,(with very good reason)
most people wrongly think they are separate from the EU.but they have been fully signed up members of the free EU trade agreement for 20 years or so(i think,i may be a few years out)they have been fully capable of keeping their national identity,controlling and growing their own economy without compromising their own laws and regulations,while at the same time reaping all the rewards
from being members of a free trade club

if it works for them no doubt its very possible it could work for the UK

As it used to in the past. The UK was a member EFTA before joining the Common Market. Yes the Common Market that's what people voted to join back in 1970's not a political free loading EU.

 

[pastafarian]

True. And the reason a lot of these work is because of the Swiss' almost total nutrality. The UK does not have this. And why would anyone leave a trusted historic safe trading partner which has been built up over decades of trade for the bankrupt UK?

you speak sense,people do not realize the swiss were screwed over and fought wars for hundreds of years against everyone around them,it was like a one sided game of risk.

they realized getting on with everyone was a much better option especially when it meant it was financially a sound idea

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Cameron is shitting himself about UKIP. He is no statesman that is for sure.