[Football] Victory Over Germany- The Sword of Damocles For Southgate

[Eeyore]

Having watched England's second ever triumph in the Euros at the knockout stage that doesn't involve penalties (the media seem to have forgotten the two-legged quarter final against Spain in 1968- in fact, it is only ever Spain who we have beaten in knockouts) most of us will feel more disposed towards Southgate if we weren't already.

For him the stakes have become higher in his climb or fall in public affection.

Had England been defeated last night in a close and tense affair, especially if it had been on penalties (or 'eleven-meter-shooting' as my German friend calls it) there may well have been some hand wringing and wailing in sackcloth and ashes. However, the FA and a lot of folk who have no issue with Southgate could have ridden the storm suggesting that another standard defeat to a powerhouse nation is the lot of all England managers.

But that's gone now.

The path to the final has the Ukraine and Czech Republic (already defeated) or Denmark standing in the way. On paper, and in the minds of fans who know the rankings and performances of the first two, things should be pretty straight forward. England were defeated by Denmark at home in the ENL last year, but that was after Maguire was sent off in the first half.

So many fans have adjusted their expectations to July 11th. Yet an emotional Denmark, and the Czech Republic since the 5-0 drubbing, are no mugs. The match against Ukraine will not see the team with support like last night (if much support at all).

For Southgate, Germany could well have provided a buffer from some criticism that would have been received should last night not have worked out. Now he has no cover. Even the commentators and pundits, as usual, are getting ahead of themself.

I can't help thinking Southgate's plans and smart execution, as well as Germany's short-comings, last night have set a rod for his own back.

He has to reach the final to be given any credit, even just for the Germany win.

 

[Mental Lental]

Ukraine are no mugs and it's in Rome where there'll be no England fans along with what now must be a huge weight of expectation on both the manager and the players. I suspect an inglorious exit with some aspect of the match used as an excuse to mask a lack luster performance. Penalties, crap VAR decision or a red card to a key player (probably Grealish after his first start).

Sorry, I'm in my 40s and have watched England fail in international tournaments too many times to get excited yet.

 

[Sheebo]

Credit him for our results so far - absolutely. He’s not been the best gaffer at club level but at international he seems to get it. I hope we’re more pragmatic against Ukraine, but I also hope we don’t concede, and keep the excellent run going.

 

[BadFish]

Southgate has worked wonders with this England team. IMHO the best job he does is to ease the weight of expectation and give the players the framework within which they can work. despite the existence of the Germans and the Argentinians we have so often been our own worst enemies. Sven, Capello, Hodgson and others haven't managed to prise our fingers off the self destruct button.

Gareth Southgate though, has managed it!!

His next job is to shield the players from this nonsense that our road to the final is clear and assured. There is still a lot of work to be done and some good teams in front of us.

However we go from here on in, Southgate has done and continues to do a good job. To write him off for not making the final is pushing the hand back towards the button and not something we should buy into.

To win a tournament at this level is incredibly ****ing difficult. To get to a final is also ****ing tough. To then define anything less than these two achievements as failure is absolute madness. Not only that it is exactly this thinking that piles on the expectation and makes it harder for our players to succeed.

The mantra for this shit down under is 'keep a ****ing lid on it!" and it serves them pretty well in a lot of sports.

 

[Justice]

Ukraine are no mugs and it's in Rome where there'll be no England fans along with what now must be a huge weight of expectation on both the manager and the players. I suspect an inglorious exit with some aspect of the match used as an excuse to mask a lack luster performance. Penalties, crap VAR decision or a red card to a key player (probably Grealish after his first start).

Sorry, I'm in my 40s and have watched England fail in international tournaments too many times to get excited yet.

VAR has been excellent during the competition, it’s only our fukwit lot that don’t use it properly. Not with you on Ukraine they look pretty average to me. Still no easy games at this level.

 

[beorhthelm]

i think the Southgate haters need to grow up a bit, i dont understand why they do tbh. beaten the Germans in tournament, we've not conceded, somehow thats not good enough?

 

[Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo]

Having watched England's second ever triumph in the Euros at the knockout stage that doesn't involve penalties (the media seem to have forgotten the two-legged quarter final against Spain in 1968- in fact, it is only ever Spain who we have beaten in knockouts) most of us will feel more disposed towards Southgate if we weren't already.

For him the stakes have become higher in his climb or fall in public affection.

Had England been defeated last night in a close and tense affair, especially if it had been on penalties (or 'eleven-meter-shooting' as my German friend calls it) there may well have been some hand wringing and wailing in sackcloth and ashes. However, the FA and a lot of folk who have no issue with Southgate could have ridden the storm suggesting that another standard defeat to a powerhouse nation is the lot of all England managers.

But that's gone now.

The path to the final has the Ukraine and Czech Republic (already defeated) or Denmark standing in the way. On paper, and in the minds of fans who know the rankings and performances of the first two, things should be pretty straight forward. England were defeated by Denmark at home in the ENL last year, but that was after Maguire was sent off in the first half.

So many fans have adjusted their expectations to July 11th. Yet an emotional Denmark, and the Czech Republic since the 5-0 drubbing, are no mugs. The match against Ukraine will not see the team with support like last night (if much support at all).

For Southgate, Germany could well have provided a buffer from some criticism that would have been received should last night not have worked out. Now he has no cover. Even the commentators and pundits, as usual, are getting ahead of themself.

I can't help thinking Southgate's plans and smart execution, as well as Germany's short-comings, last night have set a rod for his own back.

He has to reach the final to be given any credit, even just for the Germany win.

The win over Germany last night is our first ever non penalty win in the knock out stages of the finals of the European Championship.

The 1968 QF victory over Spain was not part of the final stages in Italy and would basically be called a playoff round today. The 8 group winners from the qualifying groups were drawn out into 4 matches played home and away over 2 legs, the 4 winners went through to play in the finals in Italy which consisted of semi final and finals (plus a 3/4 play off game).

 

[Hotchilidog]

Southgate deserves credit for discovering a formula that works and sticking to it no matter how much the football romantic in me would like him to change it up. Same again Saturday please Gareth.

 

[drew]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't we only beaten the worst German team in living memory (and my living memory goes back to 66)?

I'm not getting excited by all this praise of Southgate.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the win as much as anyone but let's not get carried away. As in 2018, the draw has been exceptionally kind to Southgate. One side has Belgium, Italy and Spain (no disrespect to the Swiss either), and our side Ukraine, Czechs and Denmark!

 

[Eeyore]

The win over Germany last night is our first ever non penalty win in the knock out stages of the finals of the European Championship.

The 1968 QF victory over Spain was not part of the final stages in Italy and would basically be called a playoff round today. The 8 group winners from the qualifying groups were drawn out into 4 matches played home and away over 2 legs, the 4 winners went through to play in the finals in Italy which consisted of semi final and finals (plus a 3/4 play off game).

I would contest given that the quarter finals in 1968 would still be regarded as a knockout match. A technicality, perhaps. Is it scone or scone ?

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Southgate deserves credit for discovering a formula that works and sticking to it no matter how much the football romantic in me would like him to change it up. Same again Saturday please Gareth.

This.


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[Icy Gull]

Southgate deserves credit for discovering a formula that works and sticking to it no matter how much the football romantic in me would like him to change it up. Same again Saturday please Gareth.

Indeed, he has done an excellent job and even if we fall at the next hurdle, fans will remember last night for a long time. Not been a fan but he is proving me wrong.

 

[Brovion]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't we only beaten the worst German team in living memory (and my living memory goes back to 66)?

I'm not getting excited by all this praise of Southgate.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the win as much as anyone but let's not get carried away. As in 2018, the draw has been exceptionally kind to Southgate. One side has Belgium, Italy and Spain (no disrespect to the Swiss either), and our side Ukraine, Czechs and Denmark!

No, England beat the 'worst German side in living memory' in 2000 in a Group game. That German side were SO bad they didn't even get out of the Group; at least this lot did. But yes, you're right, compared to some of the German sides we've seen (and my living memory also goes back to 1966) these aren't the greatest - but I don't care!

 

[Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo]

I would contest given that the quarter finals in 1968 would still be regarded as a knockout match. A technicality, perhaps. Is it scone or scone ?

Well it was at knockout game as the losers didn’t get to the finals but my point was more the games weren’t part of the finals. The playoff round to qualify for Euro 2020 was a knockout tournament but isn’t part of the official finals. That’s why the media were referring to win over Germany being our first non penalty win in the knock stages of the actual European Championships. Those QF games in 1968 were still part of the qualifying stages.

 

[beorhthelm]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't we only beaten the worst German team in living memory (and my living memory goes back to 66)?

ah thats what we're doing, the opposition are so bad even we can beat them. reckon Portugal didnt see it that way last weekend. truth is we neutralised their possession game, didnt give them many opportunities.

 

[Beach Hut]

The one thing Southgate has done is make a lot of fans enjoy watching England again by being bold in selection and having attacking teams, it has been ages since I have actually enjoyed watching us play again till he took over.

Whether he has the tactical nous to take us all the way remains to be seen, tactically last night excellent but step back to the Scotland game totally outwitted .

The other thing I like about Southgate, despite his pedigree, is that he is a new style manager prepared to take on board all aspects of management techniques, personally I wish him well and hope that come the next honours list he receives recognition for a job well done.

 

[Brovion]

Well it was at knockout game as the losers didn’t get to the finals but my point was more the games weren’t part of the finals. The playoff round to qualify for Euro 2020 was a knockout tournament but isn’t part of the official finals. That’s why the media were referring to win over Germany being our first non penalty win in the knock stages of the actual European Championships. Those QF games in 1968 were still part of the qualifying stages.

Yeah, it's an interesting one. I've had this argument in the pub. I tend to agree with 'Brighton Lines' though, I would argue that the 1968 Euro Finals in Italy only had four teams in it (as opposed to 326 or how many it is involved in these Finals) and thus we lost the knockout match - which also happened to be our first game. The two-legged win over Spain was part of qualifying, a bit like when FIFA make CONCAF winners or whatever take part in a play-off to qualify for a World Cup. But I'll accept it's an area for debate.

Interestingly Italy reached the Final by beating the Soviet Union in their semi-final .... on a coin toss! No penalty shoot-outs in those days!

EDIT: Sorry, I meant I agreed with you! (Quoted wrong post)

 

[Nitram]

Not getting carried away with this one result. We at best look pedestrian, and without two world class saves and Mueller’s miss would have been a different story. It’s a functional team which got a result yesterday. I’m not convinced by Southgate at all. Too frightened by his own shadow. This was also the worse Germany team in living memory.

 

[Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo]

Yeah, it's an interesting one. I've had this argument in the pub. I tend to agree with 'Brighton Lines' though, I would argue that the 1968 Euro Finals in Italy only had four teams in it (as opposed to 326 or how many it is involved in these Finals) and thus we lost the knockout match - which also happened to be our first game. The two-legged win over Spain was part of qualifying, a bit like when FIFA make CONCAF winners or whatever take part in a play-off to qualify for a World Cup. But I'll accept it's an area for debate.

Interestingly Italy reached the Final by beating the Soviet Union in their semi-final .... on a coin toss! No penalty shoot-outs in those days!

EDIT: Sorry, I meant I agreed with you! (Quoted wrong post)

The Spain game wasn't our first game in the qualifying, there was a group stage before that. The 8 group winners qualified for the QFs. We won our group against Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, although the group games also doubled up as the 1966-67 and 1967-68 Home Championships.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

The one thing Southgate has done is make a lot of fans enjoy watching England again by being bold in selection and having attacking teams, it has been ages since I have actually enjoyed watching us play again till he took over.

Attacking my arse .. not enjoying the style of football ( not a fan of two DM’S) but did of course enjoy the result. I have a call with a German customer this afternoon ….. poor sod is a Werder Bremen fan so just been relegated and then to lose to England ….


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