[Football] Victory Over Germany- The Sword of Damocles For Southgate

[Swansman]

Won't happen, you have no idea how much angst our tournament record against Germany carried. Unless we win the whole thing, we watched our Cup Final last night

I rarely see the Euro 2000 win against them mentioned

 

[Icy Gull]

I rarely see the Euro 2000 win against them mentioned

It was a group game though, they seldom carry memories for long. It's all about the knockout stages. Germany are GONE, Get IN

 

[willalbion]

There was no luck in yesterday's win. It was down to superior tactics and skill.

Not a vintage German side, but certainly not the wurst.

Muller missing that glorious chance? That was a sweet moment, but also a lucky one.

 

[Return of the Rev]

It's written in the stars England 0 v Belgium 1 (Trossard) only Brighton players have the gift to score against England.

 

[Swansman]

It's written in the stars England 0 v Belgium 1 (Trossard) only Brighton players have the gift to score against England.

Wrong. England 0 v Belgium 2 (Trossard, White O.G).

 

[nwgull]

Muller missing that glorious chance? That was a sweet moment, but also a lucky one.

That wasn't lucky for England (or unlucky for the Germans); it was poor finishing. If it was luck then you would say that it was bad luck that Sterling underhit the pass that created the chance. Were the Germans lucky that Kane's first touch it the very end of the first half was poor?

 

[vagabond]

i think the Southgate haters need to grow up a bit, i dont understand why they do tbh. beaten the Germans in tournament, we've not conceded, somehow thats not good enough?

[emoji122][emoji122][emoji122]

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

It's a funny one.

I'm in the 'not convinced Southgate is a good manager' camp. I think he comes up with a game plan and if that proves ineffective he's in trouble. Last night his plan worked perfectly so deserves the credit.

And despite my misgivings about him his achievements really do need to be respected.

In his time we have:

Reached a world cup semi final, our first in 28 years and only third in our history.

Ended our penalty shoot out nightmare.

Ended the 'we always get knocked out by the first big/decent team we face'

Beat Germany in a knock out game for the first time in about 300years

Won only our second ever knock out game in the Euros

Made the England team likable again

And with us still being in the tournament there's potentially even greater achievements ahead. It's a pretty impressive record despite any failings he may have/be perceived to have. I think it's really important to realise that with the pk shoot out wins and defeating Germany in the knockouts he's genuinely changing the narrative around England in tournaments*, at least from an English perspective.






If we end up getting knocked out on penalties I take no responsibility...

 

[Bodian]

Won't happen, you have no idea how much angst our tournament record against Germany carried. Unless we win the whole thing, we watched our Cup Final last night

I rarely see the Euro 2000 win against them mentioned

It was a group game though, they seldom carry memories for long. It's all about the knockout stages. Germany are GONE, Get IN

Not only that, but a group game has no threat of penalties. Swanny won't really appreciate the angst that we have carried around with us about penalty shoot outs as well - and how we dread and fear them. I know we got that a little out of the way in the World Cup, but that wasn't against the Germans. "Losing on penalties to the Germans" is one of those sayings that no-one needs to explain in England - it's always there in the back (or front) of our minds every single tournament. It was there last night until Kane scored.

By the way Swanny - sorry to see your lads go out, I was looking forward to NSC during an England/Sweden game!

 

[Brovion]

It's a funny one.

I'm in the 'not convinced Southgate is a good manager' camp. I think he comes up with a game plan and if that proves ineffective he's in trouble. Last night his plan worked perfectly so deserves the credit.

And despite my misgivings about him his achievements really do need to be respected.

In his time we have:

Reached a world cup semi final, our first in 28 years and only third in our history.

Ended our penalty shoot out nightmare.

Ended the 'we always get knocked out by the first big/decent team we face'

Beat Germany in a knock out game for the first time in about 300years

Won only our second ever knock out game in the Euros

Made the England team likable again

And with us still being in the tournament there's potentially even greater achievements ahead. It's a pretty impressive record despite any failings he may have/be perceived to have. I think it's really important to realise that with the pk shoot out wins and defeating Germany in the knockouts he's genuinely changing the narrative around England in tournaments*, at least from an English perspective.

If we end up getting knocked out on penalties I take no responsibility...

That pretty much sums up my view as well. I'd also like to mention, re the 'big team' point, the fact that I think this is only the second time since 1966 that we'd won a knock-out game against a 'big' nation in a major tournament (Spain in '96 being the first), and the first time we'd done it in normal time.

 

[vagabond]

We have a funny mentality in this country in that we seem reluctant to give ourselves credit where it's due, almost preferring the narrative where things go spectacularly wrong as that's the state we've become conditioned to and comfortable with. We're somewhat self-deprecating as a nation, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, but sometimes it's important to take off our grey tinted glasses and see things for what they are.

That doesn't mean getting carried away - yesterday's game wasn't 90 minutes of scintillating, total football but it certainly wasn't as bad as many are making out. In fact it wasn't 'bad' at all; far from it.

The worst Germany team of all time? Their team is littered with honours - Thomas Müller is the most decorated Germany player of all time. In their starting 11 yesterday were (from a quick count) 4 World Cup winners, 9 Champions League winners and no end of domestic title wins. Not the best German team of all time perhaps, but they shouldn't be written off just because we beat them convincingly.

We are in the last 8 of the competition having not conceded a goal. Apparently we had an easy group, yet Czech Republic just knocked out the Netherlands whilst Croatia put three past Spain and took them into extra time. The Scotland game was turgid, but that was of the Jocks' design and they deserve credit - let's not exclusively ruminate on our own faults.

There seems to be a criticism levelled at the fact that we have all this attacking talent and yet are setting up defensively. But isn't there a counter argument there? If you have a wealth of attacking talent, doesn't that allow you to defend more resolutely? Shore up at the back, and let your world class attackers do their thing when the inevitable moments arrive. The Kevin Keegan approach of "we're gonna score one more than you" was often exciting to watch, but it didn't ultimately win him any trophies. It hasn't won the tournament favourites anything this time around.

I'd also argue that we're nowhere near as defensive as people are suggesting. Yes, on the surface we lined up with five defenders and two defensive midfielders on the pitch, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Watch the goals back and look at where Luke Shaw is in both instances - in those moments he is not playing defensively.

Southgate also deservers credit for managing the mental aspect. The England shirt has worn heavy on some great players in recent years, no less than when we've faced penalties and / or the Germans. We now have clear evidence that this set of players are free of those shackles. Ukraine poses a polar challenge. Having overcome a long-standing inferiority complex with Germany, we now need to ensure that we don't underestimate an opponent which on paper we should beat comfortably. Honestly, I trust Gareth Southgate 100% to see to that.

He's also got the media on-side. Perhaps they're getting carried away, but very, very few England sides have had the media behind them, quite the opposite, only adding to the weight of those three lions. That is an achievement in itself.

This England team may not be remembered in the hall of fame of great international sides, but in the here and now we have a realistic chance of winning a major tournament for the first time in my lifetime. I just wish more of us could enjoy the moment - we have a diligent, technically gifted team which is strong at the back and capable of hurting teams when it matters. Whether that's enough for us to lift the trophy only time will tell, but let's not underestimate ourselves - we are a bloody good side doing well. No less.

[emoji106]

 

[Sheebo]

Attacking my arse .. not enjoying the style of football ( not a fan of two DM’S) but did of course enjoy the result. I have a call with a German customer this afternoon ….. poor sod is a Werder Bremen fan so just been relegated and then to lose to England ….


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Attacking teams? Organised, decent game plan, confident yes but I would disagree with attacking.

Not very attacking in this tourno, but on the qualifiers and nations league we were most definitely attacking. Top scorers in qualifying for WC out of any other team I believe. Same with the euros qualifying. He’s adjusted the side for tournament football and it seems to be working.

 

[Hugo Rune]

That wasn't lucky for England (or unlucky for the Germans); it was poor finishing.

I agree it wasn’t unlucky for the Germans but it WAS lucky for England. We made a mistake and gifted them a chance, you would expect a forward player who has won a World Cup Golden Boot and Silver Boot to tuck that one away 90% of the time. We got lucky there for sure. Most strikers in this competition would have buried that.

We were also lucky that Germany were horrendous, they hardly ever outplay us but it’s rare that they are so inept in one of the matches.

That said, Gareth is playing the percentages and winning each time. Rather than follow a French or Spanish example of winning this competition, he has gone full Greece or Portugal. The only team I fear is Italy because they are so incredibly well drilled and take care of possession.

 

[vegster]

don't worry, I'm sure The Sun has " reporters " tailing all the team and support staff waiting for a exclusive where they either catch a player breaking quarantine rules or shagging away.

This is England remember, we never do anything easily.

 

[nwgull]

I agree it wasn’t unlucky for the Germans but it WAS lucky for England. We made a mistake and gifted them a chance, you would expect a forward player who has won a World Cup Golden Boot and Silver Boot to tuck that one away 90% of the time. We got lucky there for sure. Most strikers in this competition would have buried that.

We were also lucky that Germany were horrendous, they hardly ever outplay us but it’s rare that they are so inept in one of the matches.

That said, Gareth is playing the percentages and winning each time. Rather than follow a French or Spanish example of winning this competition, he has gone full Greece or Portugal. The only team I fear is Italy because they are so incredibly well drilled and take care of possession.

Right this is my original quote:

There was no luck in yesterday's win. It was down to superior tactics and skill.

Muller not having the skill to put the ball in the net was all part of the Germans being inferior to us overall - not luck. It really annoys me when people attribute luck - good or bad - for a result in sport, or indeed in success or failure of anything in life. In most cases blaming bad luck is a way to deflect from shortcomings but results in more so-called bad luck because people then don't address the shortcoming. A good example would be teams practising penalties. There are very few cases of genuine bad luck in any sport and I think most of us know one of the most famous sporting quotes: 'The more I practise, the luckier I get'.

Let's give England some credit where it's due!

 

[KZNSeagull]

There is no such thing as a favourable draw past the qualifying rounds - it is hardly England's or Southgate's fault that other teams got themselves knocked out. It is now up to them to build upon their excellent victory and go the distance.

 

[Mellotron]

There was no luck in yesterday's win. It was down to superior tactics and skill.

Not a vintage German side, but certainly not the wurst.

Yeah this luck argument is utter ****ing bollocks.

We had the two best chances in the game - tap ins from 6 yards, from carving them open.

Bar the Muller chance, they didn't carve us open once. We were the better side against a very good tournament side.

Also, the more you control a game, the more "luck" you have. We controlled the majority of that game, and went in for the kill at precisely the right moment. Southgate got it spot on.

 

[drew]

Yeah this luck argument is utter ****ing bollocks.

We had the two best chances in the game - tap ins from 6 yards, from carving them open.

Bar the Muller chance, they didn't carve us open once. We were the better side against a very good tournament side.

Also, the more you control a game, the more "luck" you have. We controlled the majority of that game, and went in for the kill at precisely the right moment. Southgate got it spot on.

Aren't you forgetting Pickford's save against Timo Werner?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

No, England beat the 'worst German side in living memory' in 2000 in a Group game. That German side were SO bad they didn't even get out of the Group; at least this lot did. But yes, you're right, compared to some of the German sides we've seen (and my living memory also goes back to 1966) these aren't the greatest - but I don't care!

Germany have been absolute shitehouse for years.

Despite this they keep on winning tournaments.

Football is (ahem) a funny old game.

 

[drew]

There is no such thing as a favourable draw past the qualifying rounds - it is hardly England's or Southgate's fault that other teams got themselves knocked out. It is now up to them to build upon their excellent victory and go the distance.

What utter crap. It was so obvious in 2018 that Southgate was happy to concede to Belgium and finish 2nd in the group. This time I'm not saying he's engineered it but it has worked out more favourably for us as you surely can't believe that a draw with Spain, Belgium and Italy is the same as Czech, Ukraine and Denmark?