[Politics] Venezuela,over to you.

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Labour deputy leader on the radio now (R5).

Sounds like a well meaning but clueless deputy chair of a student union, debating whether the boycott of South Africa still makes sense now that Aparthied has apparently ended.

edit - actually he sounds like a really decent bloke. I have a large amount of time for an athiest. And he has had lots of actual jobs. Not Oxbridge, parliamentary assistant, MP. Proper jobs.

Mmmm...children's welfare...tax...richness...fairness...ticks my boxes. Can he deliver though?

OK Tax up. Redistribute...living wage...trade union rights...Hmmmmm...

And yet...sounds very decent....great sense of humour (which helps).

If he's really evil underneath (this jolly and candid demeanour), he's really clever. Really clever. If he's really clever then he's likely to be capable.

Oh and Brexit....very good answer....very good.

Crikey.....I started listening with a sneer on my face, and finish nodding in agreement.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

and I can't disagree you HWT. Without knowing you obviously, I would go as far to say, without wishing to be presumptuous, that generally reading your posts on here over the while, that we are politically similar. I'm afraid that nothing you post above I disagree with.

Quite.

 

[GT49er]

Neither am I. I am someone who has almost always voted labour (as a member of the party in the early years of Mr Tony) , and was willing to give Corbyn a go (needed to smooth over the 'meeting with the IRA' stuff, but not impossible with a bit of wit and contrition). But he has just disappeared, and fiddled while the country burns in a conservative fire of incompetance. Meanwhile Momentum plots and schemes. Unforgivable.

Just as Militant Tendency did in the 1980s when dear old Michael Foot was 'in charge'(nominally at best!) Unelectable - as a lifelong Labour supporter, I spoiled my ballot paper (writing 'None of These' on my ballot paper) until Labour reverted to reality (too much reality - Blair was just Tory-Lite, but many of us (including me) didn't realise that at the time). Corbyn is a nice, interesting back-bench buffer. Should have stayed there.
Difficult to think of a credible Labour leader at the moment who doesn't want to dump us arse over tit back into the EU though. The only Labour viable heavyweights available (the other Milliband and Hilary Benn) are unfortunately so far, politically speaking, up the EU's a*se they can't represent the core of Labour voters at this time.

 

[happypig]

Neither am I. I am someone who has almost always voted labour (as a member of the party in the early years of Mr Tony) , and was willing to give Corbyn a go (needed to smooth over the 'meeting with the IRA' stuff, but not impossible with a bit of wit and contrition). But he has just disappeared, and fiddled while the country burns in a conservative fire of incompetance. Meanwhile Momentum plots and schemes. Unforgivable.

Pretty much where I stand too. Corbyn needs to put country before ideology; I'm sure his plan is to let Brexit go ahead unopposed then, if (or more likely when) we are in the mire financially and he gets elected, bring in a massive program of wealth redistribution and scrapping Trident to save money that would never get him elected otherwise. I want to see a Leader of the Opposition actually oppose it before Brexit, not make political capital afterwards.

It's blinkered views like this on both sides ruin any sensible debate. You probably really want to say all Tory voters and racist, selfish c**ts. After all, that's what so many of the left-wing posters on this site say all of the time. And point A - how many labour posters on this site would ever vote Tory even if what they were proposing made sense? Look at those who try to deny the Anti-Semitism charges being levied at Corbyn now, or his historical support for terrorist groups.

I've always voted Labour but I if there were an election tomorrow I would vote for a Tory if they pledged to vote to stop Brexit. I feel dirty saying that but there you go.

 

[ManOfSussex]

It's blinkered views like this on both sides ruin any sensible debate. You probably really want to say all Tory voters and racist, selfish c**ts. After all, that's what so many of the left-wing posters on this site say all of the time. And point A - how many labour posters on this site would ever vote Tory even if what they were proposing made sense? Look at those who try to deny the Anti-Semitism charges being levied at Corbyn now, or his historical support for terrorist groups.

Thank-you very much for proving my sardonic point by responding to my post. Ultimately I'm not in any way in retrospect wishing to engage with the inevitable posters on this thread. That said, in what way am I being blinkered and denying any of the accusations levied at The Labour Party? By your own admittance on the Brexit thread you tick some of the boxes on my generalisation of a post to which you responded. When all is said and done, Labour should be 20 points ahead of this rabble - the flip side of that coin is The Tories should be doing to Labour what they did in 1935 and 1987 - They're not. Corbyn's this, Corbyn's that, Diane Abbott, like literally Diane Abbott - it's factored in ................ Give or take the 2 points which are within the margins of error of the polls and the Tories and Labour are basically 40-40. You give me Jeremy Corbyn and I'll raise you Boris Johnson, you give Diane Abbott and I'll show you Jacob Rees-Mogg.......... Interesting times.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Pretty much where I stand too. Corbyn needs to put country before ideology; I'm sure his plan is to let Brexit go ahead unopposed then, if (or more likely when) we are in the mire financially and he gets elected, bring in a massive program of wealth redistribution and scrapping Trident to save money that would never get him elected otherwise. I want to see a Leader of the Opposition actually oppose it before Brexit, not make political capital afterwards.



I've always voted Labour but I if there were an election tomorrow I would vote for a Tory if they pledged to vote to stop Brexit. I feel dirty saying that but there you go.

Just listened to the labour deputy and it sounds like the great organs of inertia are shifting. Don't quote me but it is possible labour might construct a 'no we can't vote for an omnishambles so we want another referendum' position before it is all too late. **** me, I coud write the wording, paying respects to Corbyn et al's Euroskeptcism, with all the high and low notes. Well, maybe that can too. Wouldn't that be lovely.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Thank-you very much for proving my sardonic point by responding to my post. Ultimately I'm not in any way in retrospect wishing to engage with the inevitable posters on this thread. That said, in what way am I being blinkered and denying any of the accusations levied at The Labour Party? By your own admittance on the Brexit thread you tick some of the boxes on my generalisation of a post to which you responded. When all is said and done, Labour should be 20 points ahead of this rabble - the flip side of that coin is The Tories should be doing to Labour what they did in 1935 and 1987 - They're not. Corbyn's this, Corbyn's that, Diane Abbott, like literally Diane Abbott - it's factored in ................ Give or take the 2 points which are within the margins of error of the polls and the Tories and Labour are basically 40-40. You give me Jeremy Corbyn and I'll raise you Boris Johnson, you give Diane Abbott and I'll show you Jacob Rees-Mogg.......... Interesting times.

larus is on my ignore list....can't remember why. Nobbery has many shades and textures

 

[ManOfSussex]

Just listened to the labour deputy and it sounds like the great organs of inertia are shifting. Don't quote me but it is possible labour might construct a 'no we can't vote for an omnishambles so we want another referendum' position before it is all too late. **** me, I coud write the wording, paying respects to Corbyn et al's Euroskeptcism, with all the high and low notes. Well, maybe that can too. Wouldn't that be lovely.

I've said this before on here but basically our hopes of actually opposing the extreme LeaveMeansLeave/ERG oddballs vested interest Brexit rests with Momentum and The TUC/UNITE/Len McLuskey at Labour's conference. Far from ideal, to put it mildly.

 

[GT49er]

I've always voted Labour but I if there were an election tomorrow I would vote for a Tory if they pledged to vote to stop Brexit. I feel dirty saying that but there you go.

I've always nearly always voted Labour but I if there were an election tomorrow I would vote for a Tory if Labour pledged to vote to stop Brexit. I feel dirty saying that but there you go. I reluctantly voted (for the only time in my life, I hope) Tory at the last GE.

 

[happypig]

I've always nearly always voted Labour but I if there were an election tomorrow I would vote for a Tory if Labour pledged to vote to stop Brexit. I feel dirty saying that but there you go. I reluctantly voted (for the only time in my life, I hope) Tory at the last GE.

Well thats us two paired off then. Might as well go to the pub instead.

 

[larus]

Thank-you very much for proving my sardonic point by responding to my post. Ultimately I'm not in any way in retrospect wishing to engage with the inevitable posters on this thread. That said, in what way am I being blinkered and denying any of the accusations levied at The Labour Party? By your own admittance on the Brexit thread you tick some of the boxes on my generalisation of a post to which you responded. When all is said and done, Labour should be 20 points ahead of this rabble - the flip side of that coin is The Tories should be doing to Labour what they did in 1935 and 1987 - They're not. Corbyn's this, Corbyn's that, Diane Abbott, like literally Diane Abbott - it's factored in ................ Give or take the 2 points which are within the margins of error of the polls and the Tories and Labour are basically 40-40. You give me Jeremy Corbyn and I'll raise you Boris Johnson, you give Diane Abbott and I'll show you Jacob Rees-Mogg.......... Interesting times.

I never accused you of being blinkered about the accusations levelled at the Labour Party. I guess you chose to read something into my post to suit your prejudices. May I politely suggest you actually read my words again.

The Tories are a complete shambles - TM (she makes me cringe whenever I hear her), Hammond, Gove. As for JRM, you may not like him, but he’s intelligent and articulate, and can at least hold a sensible debate unlike Abbott.

And yes you are right., Labour should be wiping the floor with the Tories due to the in-fighting over Brexit and the divisions, and also the fact that governments are (nearly) always unpopular as they have to make decisions which some group or other won’t like. These gaps narrow at election times though.

The fact that they are neck-and-neck, with the shambles that the Tories currently are is a sad indictment of Labour. Labour are a spent force all of the time that momentum are driving the more left-wing agenda. Corbyn won’t be able to get away with the view that they would do something on student loans next election. (I know that he never stated that they would be abolished, but was something they would look into). Lots of students took that as being a potential £27k windfall.

As you say, interesting times.

The other interesting thing is the rise of populist parties across Western Europe. Sweden has elections next weekend and the right-wing Sweden Democrats are forecast to be the second largest party. The ‘establishment’ should be asking themselves why.
Why was Trump elected?
Why did Brexit happen?
Why did Italy vote for far left/far right parties?
Why did Greece vote for Syriza?
Why did AfD do so well?
Why did NF do so well?
Same in Netherlands.
Same in Austria.

People can’t keep ignoring all of this and saying it’s racism. Sweden is far from a racist country but they are uncomfortable with the level of immigration and the change to their way of life. A lot of people don’t want lots of other nationalities (irrespective of skin colour) coming into their countries and causing upheaval.

IMO, the problem is the lack of accountability of politicians to the electorate. Making countries re-run a referendum if the vote goes the wrong way - hmm, that sounds familiar but another thread for that. Politicians promise but then lie and deceive. All parties, most countries. Even Macron, the golden boy, has a worse approval rating than Holland had.

 

[ManOfSussex]

As for JRM, you may not like him, but he’s intelligent and articulate, and can at least hold a sensible debate

I stopped after that I'm afraid. Rees-Mogg is a **** with about as much life experience as a dead 1 week old kitten - this is someone who talks about 'inspecting people' in regards to the Irish border in his public school, English, Etonion accent and talks of 'entryism' into the Tory party and says that, in his opinion, they ideally want people who 'give money to charity and bake cakes for Church fetes' in The Conservative Party. Well, I can see why he's never used a condom in his life - Nanny never went down that aisle in Waitrose for him and as he's never been in a pub and seen a vending machine in the toilets, he's never going to have engaged in normal conversation with normal people about it either.

Still, I'm sure when as PM he brings back poor houses and takes us back to the 1930's and a more simpler, less secular, Miss Marple Britain type time time he'll praise those working in them.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

People simply believe what the mainstream media tell them about Jeremy Corbyn being some kind of terrifying leftist bogeyman with bonkers extreme-left policies. They're unwilling to even consider the fact that most of Corbyn's headline economic policies are commonplace across the developed world, and in fact it's radically right-wing Tory policies like handing control of state schools to private sector pseudo-charities, privatising police services, and vandalising the health system that are desperately unpopular, and pretty damned rare in successful developed economies.

Policies that will win votes and that are in place across the world...

Free university education:
Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland

Cooperation tax rates above 20%:
USA, Germany, Japan, Canada

National investment banks:
Norway, South Korea, Singapore, Australia

Publicly owned national grid:
Denmark, USA, Sweden, New Zealand

Publicly owned railways:
Netherlands, France, Japan, Hong Kong

Publicly owned mail system:
Canada, Switzerland, Belgium, Finland

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

As I'm sure you'd already ascertained - None of the above.

Yeah, just teasing.
And to answer the OP's point, I do wonder whether America has had just a tiny bit to do with the downfall of socialism in Venezuela.

 

[The Rivet]

I've said this before on here but basically our hopes of actually opposing the extreme LeaveMeansLeave/ERG oddballs vested interest Brexit rests with Momentum and The TUC/UNITE/Len McLuskey at Labour's conference. Far from ideal, to put it mildly.

Still sounds like you are advocating just that though. If so makes you deluded, a political loser as Labour will get nowhere, JC ousted and Brexit (in whatever form) completed.

 

[larus]

I stopped after that I'm afraid. Rees-Mogg is a **** with about as much life experience as a dead 1 week old kitten - this is someone who talks about 'inspecting people' in regards to the Irish border in his public school, English, Etonion accent and talks of 'entryism' into the Tory party and says that, in his opinion, they ideally want people who 'give money to charity and bake cakes for Church fetes' in The Conservative Party. Well, I can see why he's never used a condom in his life - Nanny never went down that aisle in Waitrose for him and as he's never been in a pub and seen a vending machine in the toilets, he's never going to have engaged in normal conversation with normal people about it either.

Still, I'm sure when as PM he brings back poor houses and takes us back to the 1930's and a more simpler, less secular, Miss Marple Britain type time time he'll praise those working in them.

What a load of pathetic twaddle. You’ve just confirmed that you are blinkered and there’s no point trying to discuss anything with you. You want to ramble on about whether JRM has bought condoms. Whatever pal - you ain’t worth the effort. I’ll leave you to throw more abuse like the Clamp does. More stuff like knuckle-dragger comments no doubt.

 

[larus]

People simply believe what the mainstream media tell them about Jeremy Corbyn being some kind of terrifying leftist bogeyman with bonkers extreme-left policies. They're unwilling to even consider the fact that most of Corbyn's headline economic policies are commonplace across the developed world, and in fact it's radically right-wing Tory policies like handing control of state schools to private sector pseudo-charities, privatising police services, and vandalising the health system that are desperately unpopular, and pretty damned rare in successful developed economies.

Policies that will win votes and that are in place across the world...

Free university education:
Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland

Cooperation tax rates above 20%:
USA, Germany, Japan, Canada

National investment banks:
Norway, South Korea, Singapore, Australia

Publicly owned national grid:
Denmark, USA, Sweden, New Zealand

Publicly owned railways:
Netherlands, France, Japan, Hong Kong

Publicly owned mail system:
Canada, Switzerland, Belgium, Finland

If all of these are so good and vote winners, why aren’t they ALL done in ALL of these countries?

 

[wellquickwoody]

As I'm sure you'd already ascertained - None of the above.

Just a dreamer.

 

[ManOfSussex]

What a load of pathetic twaddle. You’ve just confirmed that you are blinkered and there’s no point trying to discuss anything with you. You want to ramble on about whether JRM has bought condoms. Whatever pal - you ain’t worth the effort. I’ll leave you to throw more abuse like the Clamp does. More stuff like knuckle-dragger comments no doubt.

The prospect of Rees-Mogg as PM is as big as existential threat to this country we will have had since 1945. Never mind people in former colliery constituencies, every time he speaks, people flock to The SNP and Sinn Fein. Frankly - Lucky them - they've got a way out.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

If all of these are so good and vote winners, why aren’t they ALL done in ALL of these countries?

That’s your argument? That because all the policies aren’t adopted in all said countries they aren’t good?

My point was that it just goes to show how people have been led like sheep into believing that Jeremy Corbyn is some kind of terrifying left-wing extremist, rather than a centre-left democratic socialist who is proposing economic policies that are perfectly normal across Europe and the rest of the developed world.

Of course there is no country on Earth where a government has come to power and enacted absolutely everything in the Labour Party manifesto, but significant elements of Labour's economic policies are absolutely commonplace across the developed world.